Campaign to review child covid vaccination by Gt Ormond St Hospital expert

[perfectSmiles3]

Without the intent to cause panic... why is this not in the news?

There was an open letter sent to JCVI (copy of the letter is online) signed by about 15 well-regarded medical professionals and an even greater number of MPs urging the JCVI to review the current child vaccination programme.

I've also come across an interview with one of the signatories, Prof Brent Taylor, Emeritus Professor of Community Child Health, UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health discussing their concerns and the letter. I find it very unnerving listening to his words.

On a side note, what on the good Lord's Earth is the wisdom of that font in the attachment??

@Piggywaspushed

Pretty sure our 12-17 year olds only get Pfizer.

Correct.

Moderna has 3x the mRNA dosage vs Pfizer which is why Pfizer is much more suitable for children as it can be more finely calibrated for their physiology.

All I know is that I am not going to dismiss the voice of those treating children as a day job in world-renowned children's hospitals who have the experience of seeing hundreds of our kids since the UK began vaccinating.

None of those signatories have a "day job" treating children in world renowned children's hospitals, @perfectSmiles3.

BTW, Professor Emeritus is an honourary title used by retired professors. Professor Brent Taylor retired from that role in 2008.

Also important to remember that death is not the only negative outcome for children following covid.

Long covid cases now up to 20,000 with symptoms for over a year, and 12,000 children whose activity is “limited a lot”.

And to be clear, these are not 20,000 cases of kids feeling a bit tired. These include neurological problems, inflammatory system problems, organ damage, fatigue to the point they can’t attend school.

Am I right in thinking that’s a larger number than vaccine side effects?

That doesn’t mean that vaccine side effects should be ignored or disregarded. They of course need to be thoroughly investigated. But for the purposes of fairness, there should be equal knowledge about the side effects of covid in children.

This is an earlier paper ( not a preprint so more polished looking) comparing myocarditis rates post vaccine /infection by the authors of the preprint linked to above. The graphs show that overall the risk from infection is greater, but it's more evenly balanced for younger people (

@Notthemessiah If someone has an antivaxxer agenda then, yes, we probably should disregard their attempts to sway public discourse about vaccine safety.

Misinformation about vaccines contributes to avoidable deaths.

[quote BewareTheLibrarians]@Teenylittlefella I’m sorry to hear about your ds, that must have been terrifying. Good to hear that he’s feeling better but I can imagine the worry doesn’t go away that quickly for you.

Completely agree that fundamentalism is so dangerous, and one of the reasons I’m so against the HART group types behind this letter. They would have people believe that there’s no risk to children from covid, when I know from my son that’s not the case. Most kids are lucky like your son, but some like mine have complications for a long time (and we don’t yet know if he’ll ever get better) yet this isn’t widely known and not enough awareness is raised.

I’d feel the same about anyone saying any vaccine was 100% risk free and minimising the experience your son has had too.[/quote]
But statistically the risk of covid for kids isn't that great, that's the point when you are weighing one risk against another. Because you have to be able to compare. If we want to compare the risks of the vaccine or the risks of mitigation measures, it has to be weighed against statistical risk.

@Cuck00soup

I'm a very pro vaccine, vaccine nurse and really struggled with whether or not to give my 12 yo the vaccine.

The JCVI said some weeks ago that the benefits are marginal compared with the risk of side effects although this was widely misreported at the time.

Essentially we are vaccinating children who are unlikely to be unwell with covid to protect the population as a whole. The aim, to reduce serious illness and death amongst older people overall is well intentioned. It's not so good when you look at risks to individual children.

In the end DD had her first jab, mainly to reduce the disruption to her education. Due to a (very mild) dose of covid over the holidays she isn't able to have her second until March and so I am watching developments here.

It's important to me that these discussions can happen and that the medics are not dismissed as antivaxxers.

The people who signed the letter in question are almost all not current front-line medics working with children. They are mostly MPs or in academic roles; some are retired.

People who actually do work with sick kids see the impact of Covid (even when it isn't lethal, because that does matter too), and they also don't write off kids with comorbidities as some in this thread have done - I don't mean you, but others.

[quote Innocenta]@Notthemessiah If someone has an antivaxxer agenda then, yes, we probably should disregard their attempts to sway public discourse about vaccine safety.

Misinformation about vaccines contributes to avoidable deaths. [/quote]
Ok, so wanting any kind of discussion about vaccines make you an ‘anti-vaxxer’? If only everyone would just shut up and not ever question what they’re told?

Seriously, people like you scare me more than the ones not taking the vaccines.

@SantaClawsServiette I gave some statistics in my previous post. Let’s go with the lower measure of 12,000 children who have their activity “limited a lot” due to covid infection (ONS statistics). Are there statistics which show 12,000 cases of vaccine side effects in under 18s which are limiting their activity a lot (ie making them so ill they can’t attend school full time, have dropped out of sports clubs, even difficulty moving around with the house, whether due to myocarditis or other issues, for 4 weeks+? Or 20,000 experiencing issues over a year later?

@Notthemessiah No. The OP of this thread has a pronounced antivaxxer slant.

It's possible to identify this and be concerned about it without jumping to "noooo discussion about vaccines ever!"

...How much discussion do you think we should be having about the compulsory vaccines young people have before starting medical school? Or about MMR, say? Or tetanus? I personally think vaccines are great. I'd rather people not die in unpleasant avoidable ways.

[quote BewareTheLibrarians]@SantaClawsServiette I gave some statistics in my previous post. Let’s go with the lower measure of 12,000 children who have their activity “limited a lot” due to covid infection (ONS statistics). Are there statistics which show 12,000 cases of vaccine side effects in under 18s which are limiting their activity a lot (ie making them so ill they can’t attend school full time, have dropped out of sports clubs, even difficulty moving around with the house, whether due to myocarditis or other issues, for 4 weeks+? Or 20,000 experiencing issues over a year later?[/quote]
That's pretty irrelevant to my post, which was in response to comments about one child, as if decisions about health policy should be made on the basis of individual cases.

Kids lives have been limited a lot mainly due to mitigation policies, not covid itself. Stats for a year post vaccination, as you well know, are not on offer.

My local hospital currently has more kids in for RSV than it does for covid.

[quote Innocenta]@Notthemessiah No. The OP of this thread has a pronounced antivaxxer slant.

It's possible to identify this and be concerned about it without jumping to "noooo discussion about vaccines ever!"

...How much discussion do you think we should be having about the compulsory vaccines young people have before starting medical school? Or about MMR, say? Or tetanus? I personally think vaccines are great. I'd rather people not die in unpleasant avoidable ways. [/quote]
Are you suggesting that if one vaccine is a good thing, every other vaccine is also a good thing?

@SantaClawsServiette An RSV vaccine is currently in development. Will you be against that one too?

[quote Innocenta]@Notthemessiah No. The OP of this thread has a pronounced antivaxxer slant.

It's possible to identify this and be concerned about it without jumping to "noooo discussion about vaccines ever!"

...How much discussion do you think we should be having about the compulsory vaccines young people have before starting medical school? Or about MMR, say? Or tetanus? I personally think vaccines are great. I'd rather people not die in unpleasant avoidable ways. [/quote]
As much discussion as they want, as long as no-one actually starts claiming things that are actually factually untrue. Don’t you?

Well, it's factually untrue that 15 medical professionals have signed that letter....

Has it not been shown that more people develop myocarditis following Covid infection than Covid vaccination?

Even in those very small few that do develop myocarditis - at all - it's often harmless, with most cases proving mild, or asymptomatic.

You want to be comparing those who develop post-covid complications, with those that develop vaccine-acquired myocarditis if you really want to compare the two.

@Piggywaspushed

Well, it's factually untrue that 15 medical professionals have signed that letter....

certainly appears that way, unless the list published later in the thread is not complete. Much better to point this kind of thing out than to try and shut down the discussion altogether though (in my opinion anyway)

The OP said "about 15"

But remember, 15 is an awful big number to count to ...

@SantaClawsServiette I’m not sure I follow - your post was about the statistical risk of covid, I provided some relevant statistics.

And I’m not sure which “one child” you’re referring to - the one with post covid complications or the one with post-vaccine complications?

Also nowhere in my post did I say health decisions should be made on the basis on individual cases - hence quoting the ONS statistics on long covid.

@kittensinthekitchen

The OP said "about 15"

But remember, 15 is an awful big number to count to ...

It’s also one of those incredibly subjective numbers, where “15 cases of myocarditis post vaccine” = shock, horror, vaccines are terrible, but “15 cases of myocarditis post covid = “you have to learn to live with it, they were probably obese you just want schools shut forever!!”

The latest data on covid child admissions and discussion of the fact that a higher proportion of child cases are being hospitalised with omicron than in previous waves (still small proportions - something like one in every 160 cases iirc):

twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1480637242590871555?s=21





@JanglyBeads

https://twitter.com/tigressellie/status/1480577211375759360?s=21

Figures here (England only) - although why do you want a cut off at 14?

"England Child Covid Admissions 10th January

Child Covid total Hospital Admissions rise to 14,890 a rise of 119 children admitted overnight

0-5 7575 +70
6-17 7315 +49

Child Covid Admissions 13,897 in 421 days"

Where is 'Tigressellie' getting these figures from? The reason for me using the figures from Birth to 14 is that is the way the Office of National Statistics have given the data. The next age group is 15-44, as it is highly likely that deaths within that age group will be at the higher end.

I find this tracker probably the most reliable and easy to read. It is unbiased and uses the information the different Goverment agencies supply.
www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/

In response to Jangly Beads. This is exactly where the pro vaccine/anti vaccine camps falls down. The vast majority of us who question vaccine use, are NOT saying don't take the vaccine. We are simply saying that we should be given the option to assess the benefit in each individual case. To my mind it will offer very little benefit to a fit and healthy teenager.

Equally no matter what anybody may claim. Not one of the scientists can say with all certainty the long term effects of the vaccines. We have all seen numerous posts here saying how it had effected many Women's menstrual cycle. Would you take that chance with a Girl just starting menstruation? Can you say with all certainty that the vaccine will have no effect on fertility?

But if we can only discuss looking at figures up to age 14 that's unhelpful. The eligible vaccination age group under discussion is largely 14 and above.

I don't think anyone has suggested Tigressellie's figures are wrong.