Sajid javid

[Worried456776]

news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-sajid-javid-directly-challenged-on-mandatory-coronavirus-jabs-by-unvaccinated-nhs-doctor-12511224

Well done to this docter for standing up for himself.

@Tealightsandd

Patients would have every reason to question the safety standards and medical judgments from a hospital that feels it is appropriate to employ someone who doesn't believe in medicine or science.

How can patients trust a HCP who doesn't trust science and medicine?

If you don't trust science and medicine, you need to find alternative more appropriate employment in a non science and medicine based environment.

Medicine and science isn't a "belief" you're confusing those things with religion.

@Turquoisesea

Yes but I don’t see what he said that was so wrong. Immunity does wane from the vaccine that’s why boosters were rolled out and he was saying he doesn’t want to have a vaccine potentially every 3 months.

Immunity wanes from infection too. I don't think he said when he was tested for antibodies but it could have been well over a year ago which means he may not have any anymore. Some of my DDs non-vaccinated friends have had COVID twice.

Sacking staff is a terrible idea

Not as terrible as keeping on wildly inappropriate staff. For example, staff who don't trust science and medicine working in a science and medicine based environment - and who are unwilling to meet a duty of care towards vulnerable patients.

HCP jobs are supposed to be for the benefit of the patients.

Like with any job, if somebody is unable or unwilling to meet all the requirements - including vital new safety regulations? They need to seek more appropriate employment elsewhere.

Or, shall we say that nobody can ever be sacked from any job ever again?

But how will sacking staff help the NHS? You might disagree with their indivisible choices but for the NHS as an organisation it will be a disaster if they do.

Unless I've misunderstood NHS staff will have to have been double jabbed to work. Considering even some of those who've had the booster are starting to lose immunity who does this new rule help. Staff will have to prove they've had an out of date vaccine??!

@Turquoisesea

I don’t agree that people will get vaccinated either who haven’t already. Look how well that went with care homes.

I thought that the majority of care home staff got vaccinated in the end. Regardless, I doubt the anaethetist is going to give up his 100k job that he spent 13 years or so training for purely because he doesn't want to get vaccinated. If he leaves it's because he wanted to anyway.

I have had 3 vaccinations now, but I was wondering the other day about how this will play out in the future. How realistic is it to have everyone vaccinated every 6 months?
I actually didn't realise until watching the clip how much immunity wanes just a couple of months after having the vaccine. It is a really good point he makes, surely they cannot vaccinate NHS workers every month.

How can it be said that he doesn't believe in "science and medicine" when it is "science" that is telling us the effectiveness of the booster fade within 10 weeks. I would say those who brook no discussion or debate about the vaccines are more "anti-science" than this medic. This is not a black or white situation. We should be mature enough to deal with shades of grey.

How often do people expect HCP to have a vaccine / booster?

I disagree with statements re ‘anti-science’ too.

I hope it’s reversed, and we don’t lose staff.

@Tealightsanddd - Working as a doctor I'd imagine he's got a lot of trust in science and medicine. It seems to be the Covid vaccines he's not too sure about. There's a difference. Also, describing him as 'wildly inappropriate' seems a little harsh! I wonder if you'd have been saying that about him if you'd ended up in his ICU before the vaccines had been created?

@Nappyvalley15

How can it be said that he doesn't believe in "science and medicine" when it is "science" that is telling us the effectiveness of the booster fade within 10 weeks. I would say those who brook no discussion or debate about the vaccines are more "anti-science" than this medic. This is not a black or white situation. We should be mature enough to deal with shades of grey.

The vaccine has been available to NHS staff for over a year. Nobody knew that the effectiveness of the vaccine was going to fade so quickly then so it's not the reason he didn't get it.

Once we’re over the omicron wave, say by March or April, and pretty much it’s gone through the population, what do people think of how important the vaccines will be then?
If we think about the spanish flu and how the virus mutated into something a lot milder then this could start happening now.

This situation is so changeable putting something in place without a get out is a political time bomb

We’ll get stories of nurses / consultants being sacked after two years of hard work - whilst we have fewer restrictions and omicron wave will be dissipating. The public mood will be different by then

[quote nojudgementhere]@Tealightsanddd - Working as a doctor I'd imagine he's got a lot of trust in science and medicine. It seems to be the Covid vaccines he's not too sure about. There's a difference. Also, describing him as 'wildly inappropriate' seems a little harsh! I wonder if you'd have been saying that about him if you'd ended up in his ICU before the vaccines had been created?[/quote]
Perhaps he's happy to give them to other people but not take them himself.

@Nappyvalley15

How can it be said that he doesn't believe in "science and medicine" when it is "science" that is telling us the effectiveness of the booster fade within 10 weeks. I would say those who brook no discussion or debate about the vaccines are more "anti-science" than this medic. This is not a black or white situation. We should be mature enough to deal with shades of grey.

that is telling us the effectiveness of the booster fade within 10 weeks

But this simply isn't true - this is the issue I have with your post & the doctors comments.

Here's the full quote that statement came from:

There is evidence of waning of protection against symptomatic
disease with increasing time after dose 2, and by 10 weeks after the booster dose, with a 15 to 25% reduction in vaccine effectiveness after 10 weeks

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1043807/technical-briefing-33.pdf

Booster efficacy remaining as high as 75-85% after 10 weeks, given that we have a rapidly mutating virus, is still pretty good and well worth having.

@Turquoisesea

But how will sacking staff help the NHS? You might disagree with their indivisible choices but for the NHS as an organisation it will be a disaster if they do.

Right so if we have a shortage of plumbers, shall we just ask any old Tom, Dick, or Sally to fiddle with the boilers?

HGV shortage... get anyone in - including those without a driving licence?

Unsafe staff are not the answer.

Other counties had less of a problem because they just got on with it. No bending over backwards pandering to people who have no regard for their vulnerable patients.

Endless half hearted begging of pretty please has much less success than a straightforward no room for argument, you do it or change jobs.

People tend to respect authority more than weak pussy footing around. The lack of follow through in fact aids the misinformation about vaccines - as those questioning science and medicine will think if it's that necessary, there'd be no hesitation over mandating them.

Also, one minute you lot argue that the rule isn't needed because "it's hardly any staff". Yet then you predict a mass exodus. It's either one or the other.

The lack of follow through in fact aids the misinformation about vaccines - as those questioning science and medicine will think if it's that necessary, there'd be no hesitation over mandating them.

This is a vital point.

Yes Bella but over that time we have had mission creep with the vaccines. It started off with 15 million vaccines to freedom and now we are eyeing up healthy 5 year olds. It wasn't always cut and dried that we would be asked to take several doses.

@Nappyvalley15

Yes Bella but over that time we have had mission creep with the vaccines. It started off with 15 million vaccines to freedom and now we are eyeing up healthy 5 year olds. It wasn't always cut and dried that we would be asked to take several doses.

www.forbes.com/sites/masonbissada/2022/01/07/children-with-covid-face-increased-risk-of-diabetes-cdc-finds/

@Tealightsandd - He's no more unsafe than any other member of staff. He has antibodies and he wears full PPE. Get a grip!

@leafyygreens

I stand corrected and you are absolutely right that in this post he has not been described as a deranged anti vaxxer. He has though been labelled as

"A prick"

Worrying that he is anti science

Better start looking for a new job

He doesn't trust science or medicine

Just another bloke with a god complex

His views are not only foolish but negligent

Needs to shut up and do proper research

For what it's worth my own non medical and non scientific personal opinion is that his view that the view that the booster vaccine wanes significantly after two months is questionable simply on the basis that the booster vaccine programme is so recent. So I wpuld be surprised there is sufficient historical evidence to support that view.

However I do have a strong opinion against the above statements slating this doctor simply for voicing his opinion when asked for it by Javid. It smacks of bullying.

[quote nojudgementhere]@Tealightsandd - He's no more unsafe than any other member of staff. He has antibodies and he wears full PPE. Get a grip![/quote]
I have a fairly firm grip, I've been told in the past.

He is more of a risk. When dealing with very vulnerable patients, all added layers of protection are important. An arsenal.

And, aside from anything else he's a burden to his colleagues. He's more likely to get sick again (from Covid) and for a longer period. See the CDC's information on reinfection risk:

Emerging evidence shows that getting a COVID-19 vaccine after you recover from COVID-19 infection provides added protection to your immune system. One study showed that, for people who already had COVID-19, those who do not get vaccinated after their recovery are more than 2 times as likely to get COVID-19 again than those who get fully vaccinated after their recovery.

www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

'Right so if we have a shortage of plumbers, shall we just ask any old Tom, Dick, or Sally to fiddle with the boilers?

HGV shortage... get anyone in - including those without a driving licence?'

That's not really a comparable argument, as he is qualified to do his job and presumably does it well. He's also been treating people with covid for almost 2 years now, so how can you say that he's suddenly 'unsafe'?

I imagine having a qualified , but unvaccinated anaesthetist working with covid patients is much better that not having that person? He's not a bigger risk to them, because they already have covid!

He's not a bigger risk to them, because they already have covid!

He doesn't only work with Covid patients.

Thanks Tea. That is useful and interesting but an increased risk might still be a very small risk.

These current vaccines are unlikely to stop children catching omicron. So it is a question whether it is worth using these current vaccinations to try to stop young children from catching covid.