Sajid javid

[Worried456776]

news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-sajid-javid-directly-challenged-on-mandatory-coronavirus-jabs-by-unvaccinated-nhs-doctor-12511224

Well done to this docter for standing up for himself.

@hamstersarse

What a surprise that the evangelists are trying to discredit him on spurious grounds. Classic

Can’t you just disagree with him and not personally attack him?

Again, as posted a couple of times

I haven't seen anyone try to discredit him on spurious grounds or call him a "deranged anti vaxxer"

He is totally entitled to his views, which he has voluntarily put put into the public domain. We are all entitled to critique his views and his expertise. I have not seen any personal attacks?

You are the one making personal attacks, @hamstersarse calling people "evangelists" just because they are voicing doubt about his views.

What's interesting about this doctor's stance is that he has seen what covid 19 is doing to people in ITU yet still refuses the vaccine. I want to know what he knows! Are there treatments we've not been told about? Supplements? I tried several in a pick and mix fashion and did have a good outcome, luck more than anything I suppose. I'm slim and healthy despite no thyroid/parathyroids. Even so, it was quite scary, especially when the NHS just tell you to take paracetamol really. What does he know? That he won't get covid again? I thought that was now rubbished? That it will be milder? Or that omicron will see covid morph into a common cold type illness?

Just pondering because a doctor at the coal face so sure of his position should have us asking questions before writing him off as a quack.

@lorrainecleaver

What's interesting about this doctor's stance is that he has seen what covid 19 is doing to people in ITU yet still refuses the vaccine. I want to know what he knows! Are there treatments we've not been told about? Supplements? I tried several in a pick and mix fashion and did have a good outcome, luck more than anything I suppose. I'm slim and healthy despite no thyroid/parathyroids. Even so, it was quite scary, especially when the NHS just tell you to take paracetamol really. What does he know? That he won't get covid again? I thought that was now rubbished? That it will be milder? Or that omicron will see covid morph into a common cold type illness?

Just pondering because a doctor at the coal face so sure of his position should have us asking questions before writing him off as a quack.

The evidence for acute treatments is there for all to see

We have several repositioned drugs for which there is evidence for efficacy, no robust evidence for supplements, and the novel treatments which have been newly developed

Yes for hospital care leafygreens but prescious little for outpatient care to prevent hospitalisation. Maybe he sees these new treatments are having great outcomes in ITU then? Other than on those dying WITH covid but deeply ill with something else serious?

@lorrainecleaver

Yes for hospital care leafygreens but prescious little for outpatient care to prevent hospitalisation. Maybe he sees these new treatments are having great outcomes in ITU then? Other than on those dying WITH covid but deeply ill with something else serious?

Nope - several treatments recommended now for outpatient care including a steroid based drug (repositioned)

And there's the new anti-virals given to CEV patients with a positive result

Sorry, posted too soon. What I mean is, maybe these drugs are efficacious enough to negate the need for the vaccine, especially if he is seeing double/triple vaccinated in ITU with covid, which sadly still happens.

Nope - several treatments recommended now for outpatient care including a steroid based drug (repositioned) I wasn't offered a thing, and I was ill in November so not that long ago. Maybe it's only offered when you are below 94 on the pulse oximeter they don't tell you to use.

What can he possibly know to make him so strong in his conviction...I wish that interview had gone on so much longer.

Well those are my thoughts. Off to get ready for a night at my friends, a rare treat since the clubs are still locked down here. Have a great Saturday all.

I think Sajid Javid was really stupid to ask the question. I don't think much of anaethetist either though. His comments about the science not being strong enough are not shared by the majority of scientists or medics and play straight into the hands of the anti vaxers. He may not personally be vulnerable to COVID but he doesn't seem to give have much thought the fact that people will use his comments to persuade others not to get vaccinated and some of those people may die as a result.

@lorrainecleaver

Nope - several treatments recommended now for outpatient care including a steroid based drug (repositioned) I wasn't offered a thing, and I was ill in November so not that long ago. Maybe it's only offered when you are below 94 on the pulse oximeter they don't tell you to use.

What can he possibly know to make him so strong in his conviction...I wish that interview had gone on so much longer.

They started offering antivirals to certain outpatients (mainly those that are very immunosuppressed) at the end of December.

I am not qualified to say whether his claims are untrue or true but I can see that it flies in the face of the established orthodox position .

The established orthodox position as you call it is the one supported by a massive majority of scientists who know what they are talking about – ie epidemiologists and virologists. It is not so much 'orthodox' as 'widely agreed'.

Once you can show me more than a handful of researchers in these fields who aren't in favour of vaccinations then maybe you'll have a point, but I doubt you can.

@thing47

Describe it as orthodox position or established position or widely agree position or position supported by a massive majority of scientists . Either way this doctor's views are at odds with this position.

I have no scientific background or even desire to demonstrate whether his views are groundless or not.

The point I wish to make is to play devils advocate and look at what the wider ramifications would be if he actually did have a point.

Looking at these ramifications I believe that it would be better for society as a whole to continue with the pro vaccine advice of the majority of scientific researchers and politicians regardless of any contrary new evidence or research that comes to light. Sometimes it's better for the public not to know things.

I think the point is whether you disagree or not with him not being vaccinated the fact is come April the NHS stands to lose a huge number of staff which isn’t good news for any of us. As stated on a previous thread the same thing has happened in the USA and now they are letting asymptotic covid positive nurses and doctors treat patients as they are so understaffed. Where is the logic in that? The doctor wasn’t trying to put anyone else off being vaccinated, he was merely suggesting he shouldn’t lose his job for not being vaccinated. I think the world has truly gone crazy if anyone thinks sacking unvaccinated HCPs will in any way help the NHS or patients.

@Turquoisesea

I think the point is whether you disagree or not with him not being vaccinated the fact is come April the NHS stands to lose a huge number of staff which isn’t good news for any of us. As stated on a previous thread the same thing has happened in the USA and now they are letting asymptotic covid positive nurses and doctors treat patients as they are so understaffed. Where is the logic in that? The doctor wasn’t trying to put anyone else off being vaccinated, he was merely suggesting he shouldn’t lose his job for not being vaccinated. I think the world has truly gone crazy if anyone thinks sacking unvaccinated HCPs will in any way help the NHS or patients.

I agree that going ahead with it if the numbers are still the same will do more harm than good, however April is still a long time away.

The doctor wasn’t trying to put anyone else off being vaccinated,

This I disagree with - the false statements he was using to back up his choice would absolute put people off vaccination or make them think it wasn't necessary.

I think the English government will backtrack. Not all of the UK is making vaccines mandatory for NHS frontline staff.

@leafyygreens yes but by now I think people are either in the have the vaccine camp or not. I think the vaccines are a good thing, I’ve had mine and I’ve also had covid. I do think having a previous infection should be considered as well as vaccination. No one is saying you can’t get covid twice but that applies if either vaccinated or unvaccinated and he is right in the fact that immunity wanes from both. I just don’t think sacking staff is in any way a well thought through idea!

@ClaudineClare

I think the English government will backtrack. Not all of the UK is making vaccines mandatory for NHS frontline staff.

Well if England and/or any other part of the UK chooses to be a world outlier in failing to take reasonable precautions to protect vulnerable patients, I expect to see a lot of legal action from bereaved relatives.

Hospitals, care homes, and other health and social care settings have a legal duty of care.

I wonder too whether all the many people in other types of employment who, over the years, have had to change jobs after not being able or willing to meet new safety regulations would sue too? Plumbers, caterers, HGV drivers, taxi operators, etc.

[quote Turquoisesea]@leafyygreens yes but by now I think people are either in the have the vaccine camp or not. I think the vaccines are a good thing, I’ve had mine and I’ve also had covid. I do think having a previous infection should be considered as well as vaccination. No one is saying you can’t get covid twice but that applies if either vaccinated or unvaccinated and he is right in the fact that immunity wanes from both. I just don’t think sacking staff is in any way a well thought through idea![/quote]
I totally agree that sacking staff is a terrible idea, and I respect the doctor's choice in not wanting to get it

HOWEVER it is how he justified it by saying things that are not true, that people have an issue with

Patients would have every reason to question the safety standards and medical judgments from a hospital that feels it is appropriate to employ someone who doesn't believe in medicine or science.

How can patients trust a HCP who doesn't trust science and medicine?

If you don't trust science and medicine, you need to find alternative more appropriate employment in a non science and medicine based environment.

@Turquoisesea

I think the point is whether you disagree or not with him not being vaccinated the fact is come April the NHS stands to lose a huge number of staff which isn’t good news for any of us. As stated on a previous thread the same thing has happened in the USA and now they are letting asymptotic covid positive nurses and doctors treat patients as they are so understaffed. Where is the logic in that? The doctor wasn’t trying to put anyone else off being vaccinated, he was merely suggesting he shouldn’t lose his job for not being vaccinated. I think the world has truly gone crazy if anyone thinks sacking unvaccinated HCPs will in any way help the NHS or patients.

I very much doubt that there will be a mass exodus from the NHS. The great majority will get vaccinated including this doctor probably.

Whether or not he was trying to put people off being vaccinated he undoubtedly will. Some people on this thread are already wondering if he knows something that others don't. Furthermore, his words will be used and manipulated by anti vax, conspiracy tin foil hat people.

Yes but I don’t see what he said that was so wrong. Immunity does wane from the vaccine that’s why boosters were rolled out and he was saying he doesn’t want to have a vaccine potentially every 3 months.

I don’t agree that people will get vaccinated either who haven’t already. Look how well that went with care homes.

We will see @Tealightsandd. Vaccination rates amongst NHS workers in Wales are high, which is why mandation is not being introduced here. Unless the stance has changed recently, but I don't think it has. Drakeford is cautious with all things covid so I think he would do it if needed.