Sajid javid

[Worried456776]

news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-sajid-javid-directly-challenged-on-mandatory-coronavirus-jabs-by-unvaccinated-nhs-doctor-12511224

Well done to this docter for standing up for himself.

Because being jabbed every month hasn't been examined for safety.

@zaffa

Because they don’t really know how safe these vaccinations and boosters are ?

See Sam White (GP who is suspended as he was actively promoting misinformation)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-59524620

"The judge said it was "clear" that the tribunal had not directed itself to the tests required under the act.

He concluded there had been "an error of law and a clear misdirection" in the tribunal's decision-making process, and therefore the decision was "clearly wrong and cannot stand".

Not sure why you've linked that article?

Sam White has lost his medical license for spreading misinformation & profiting from it by directing patients to his holistic medicine business.

^ Post hidden because I linked his crowd funding source which summarises his case

@Buzzinwithbez

So, it may or may not turn out to be trendy quackery. In terms of taking advice on vaccines, I would listen to the experts for now rather than one lone doctor.

There are other doctors with concerns, including those that are vaccinated. In addition there are 100,000 NHS staff also with concerns.
It's hard to ignore the experience of my friends with confirmed vaccine injury when it's within a small friendship group and think 'oh well, on a population level it's still rare'

But very many more support vaccines, as to the vast vast majority of scientists

And yes it's hard to be objective if you know about an adverse vaccine impact. But the adverse impacts of covid are much much bigger. Maybe omicron will change this, only time will tell

You don't seem to be able to separate anecdotal evidence and stats from scientific evidence / stats

@Beachcomber

Because being jabbed every month hasn't been examined for safety.

Right, but if the scientists review the evidence and decide that is the way forward, they will weigh up and consider safety aspects as part of that. I wasn't suggesting you should try and get yourself jabbed monthly by turning up a vaccine centre - I'm saying if the official guidance (from the people who know significantly more about all aspects of the vaccine than you or I do) recommend it why wouldn't you do it? (Apologies if I have misunderstood and you actually have a Chris Whitty style role and in depth understanding of the virus and vaccine at the JVCI...)

[quote Worried456776]@zaffa

Because they don’t really know how safe these vaccinations and boosters are ?[/quote]
You and I don't, but if the JVCI recommend it, then you can bet they do. I trust scientists. I don't know how safe the BCG or the MMR vax is personally either, but I trust the accredited experts and follow their guidance so my SD had both.
Again, I'm asking why you wouldn't do it if it was the official guidance? (None of us are able to get monthly vaccines without it being official guidance...)

@Beachcomber

Because being jabbed every month hasn't been examined for safety.

Who is being "jabbed" every month?

The general population has been offered a three dose vaccine schedule.

@leafyygreens this was probably in response to me asking why you wouldn't do it if it was official guidance and it kept schools open, healthcare functioning, economy afloat etc.
I am genuinely curious about why people wouldn't want to follow the guidance of accredited experts - look what happened when we all got 'sick of experts' with Brexit and how that's turned out for everyone!

I am not a virologist nor have any in depth scientific knowledge to determine whether that doctor does or does not have a valid point. But I am shocked at the level of anger, discrediting and general poo poo'ing of his views. This led me to think why posters are reacting so strongly against his views.

Now I am not supporting his views as I'm unqualified to do so but let's play devils advocate for a moment and look at what the wider implications would be if his views were correct namely:

1. infection and natural antibodies provides a level of resistance equivalent to that of a Covid booster.

2. the effectiveness of the booster wanes significantly after two months, requiring frequent future top up boosters.

Now I really don't wish to debate if these views are correct or not, but instead focus on the implications IF they were correct.

1. those that have been double or tripled jabbed would be extremely worried that the effectiveness of the vaccine had waned significantly to the point it now provided minimal protection against Covid especially Omnicron.

2. that there was no additional benefit of having the vaccine for those who already had Covid.

3. that the credibility is questioned of the entire vaccination programme, the public announcements promoting vaccination, the measures against the unvaccinated it and finally the massive cost to the taxpayer.

4. the impact on civil order and society of the the politicians and scientists saying "nah sorry about the massive upheaval and financial costs of the last two years but in hindsight we kinda got it wrong, it's back to herd immunity and we didn't want to admit it. "
   The country would be in uproar.

So in conclusion even if this doctor is right the horrendous impact of this ever coming to light is unimaginable. Which is why people get so angry with those expressing such views and we don't wish to even contemplate alternative opinions.

Therefore it is simply better and easier for everyone to discredit his views as a "deranged anti vaxxer", ostracise him and continue with the established narrative or as I previously posted "in ignorance there is strength ".

@1dayatatime

Can you link to any post of the thread where someone as referred to him as "deranged anti vaxxer"? This keeps happening and I have no idea why posters need to make stuff up.

What has been pointed out is that the claims he is making are not true. This is a problem as it will discourage vaccination, against all evidence that it is safer to be vaccinated than not, for the adult population.

A federal judge ruled yesterday that the FDA have 8 months to release all the documents related to the licensing of the Pfizer covid vaccine

Did they now? As you say, interesting - though with blocking tactics and sclerotic bureaucracy it wouldn't surprise me if it's still years before we see anything

Odd, isn't it, that the FDA apparently had the staff to move vaccine release forward at the speed of light, but now suddenly don't have the staff when the basis on which they did it is supposed to be publicised?

@1dayatatime

I am not a virologist nor have any in depth scientific knowledge to determine whether that doctor does or does not have a valid point. But I am shocked at the level of anger, discrediting and general poo poo'ing of his views. This led me to think why posters are reacting so strongly against his views.

Now I am not supporting his views as I'm unqualified to do so but let's play devils advocate for a moment and look at what the wider implications would be if his views were correct namely:

1. infection and natural antibodies provides a level of resistance equivalent to that of a Covid booster.

2. the effectiveness of the booster wanes significantly after two months, requiring frequent future top up boosters.

Now I really don't wish to debate if these views are correct or not, but instead focus on the implications IF they were correct.

1. those that have been double or tripled jabbed would be extremely worried that the effectiveness of the vaccine had waned significantly to the point it now provided minimal protection against Covid especially Omnicron.

2. that there was no additional benefit of having the vaccine for those who already had Covid.

3. that the credibility is questioned of the entire vaccination programme, the public announcements promoting vaccination, the measures against the unvaccinated it and finally the massive cost to the taxpayer.

4. the impact on civil order and society of the the politicians and scientists saying "nah sorry about the massive upheaval and financial costs of the last two years but in hindsight we kinda got it wrong, it's back to herd immunity and we didn't want to admit it. "
   The country would be in uproar.

So in conclusion even if this doctor is right the horrendous impact of this ever coming to light is unimaginable. Which is why people get so angry with those expressing such views and we don't wish to even contemplate alternative opinions.

Therefore it is simply better and easier for everyone to discredit his views as a "deranged anti vaxxer", ostracise him and continue with the established narrative or as I previously posted "in ignorance there is strength ".

I am not angry with this doctor. But, having looked at his website and what he is promoting, I do not see anything to suggest he knows more than all the virologists and immunologists world wide who back vaccination.

@leafyygreens

Not sure why you've linked that article?

Sam White has lost his medical license for spreading misinformation & profiting from it by directing patients to his holistic medicine business.

^ Post hidden because I linked his crowd funding source which summarises his case

No he hasn't lost his medical license. There was an interim order tribunal which the court found against, as an infringement on his freedom of expression. Dr White had resigned his NHS job already. It's now up to the GMC to decide whether to continue this further. ukhumanrightsblog.com/2021/12/07/unorthodox-covid-views-and-medical-regulation-richard-smith/

@leafyygreens

I am not qualified to say whether his claims are untrue or true but I can see that it flies in the face of the established orthodox position .

As for discouraging people to have the vaccination, I think that at this stage of the game anyone who has refused to have the vaccine is pretty much entrenched in their views anyway and although this doctor's opinion will reinforce those views of the unvaccinated, I strongly doubt that his publicised opinion will make much difference compared to the massive public health campaign promoting vaccination.

Unless of course you feel that there can only ever be "one opinion" on this topic.

[quote 1dayatatime]@leafyygreens

I am not qualified to say whether his claims are untrue or true but I can see that it flies in the face of the established orthodox position .

As for discouraging people to have the vaccination, I think that at this stage of the game anyone who has refused to have the vaccine is pretty much entrenched in their views anyway and although this doctor's opinion will reinforce those views of the unvaccinated, I strongly doubt that his publicised opinion will make much difference compared to the massive public health campaign promoting vaccination.

Unless of course you feel that there can only ever be "one opinion" on this topic.

[/quote]
You seemed to ignore this, but again, where has anyone on this thread referred to him as a "deranged anti-vaxxer"?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and he should have stated one.

Instead he tried to justify this decision with things that aren't true & have been explained by many many people far more qualified than him. The evidence is clear regarding vaccination after infection.

How odd @lorrainecleaver

If that's not the case I wonder why Sam White started a crowd funding source claiming he had lost his medical license and needed help with legal fees...

It was an Iterim Order Tribunal to suspend pending any potential FTP hearing. There has since been a court hearing finding against the IOT, no doubt using those legal fees that were crowdfunded. There has been no fitness to practice case which is where licenses are lost.

This is what White says:

"My financial situation is not good. Shortly after being suspended by the NHS my bank account and savings was hacked and a 5 figure sum was stolen. The bank is refusing to make amends despite my protestations.

I had set up an independent Functional Medicine Practice. Prior to being suspended I was working as a locum for 3 days per week whilst my private practice built up. I cannot earn as a locum now and my private practice has few bookings at present whilst it is in its early stages and my reputation is unfairly sullied for speaking the truth"

I need funds to meet my day to day living costs whilst I await the outcomes of the legal process. My solicitors are raising funds for my legal battles which you can read about"

So White and James are both anti the vaccinesand both are pushing the functional medicine agenda, which they both have set up private practices in.

That does not inspire trust.

@ClaudineClare

This is what White says:

"My financial situation is not good. Shortly after being suspended by the NHS my bank account and savings was hacked and a 5 figure sum was stolen. The bank is refusing to make amends despite my protestations.

I had set up an independent Functional Medicine Practice. Prior to being suspended I was working as a locum for 3 days per week whilst my private practice built up. I cannot earn as a locum now and my private practice has few bookings at present whilst it is in its early stages and my reputation is unfairly sullied for speaking the truth"

I need funds to meet my day to day living costs whilst I await the outcomes of the legal process. My solicitors are raising funds for my legal battles which you can read about"

So White and James are both anti the vaccinesand both are pushing the functional medicine agenda, which they both have set up private practices in.

That does not inspire trust.

The having your bank account hacked and a "five figure sum" stolen sounds like an especially unfortunate coincidence, and definitely something you should share on a crowd funding page

I also remember even Vernon Cole was questioning what Sam White had done with the money - when you manage to piss off someone in your anti-vaccine circle, that is quite something.

Today, I wrote to Dr White saying this:

‘Because I promoted you, I’m getting questions about the money you’ve raised. I think people want to know what’s happening to it all.’

I hope that Dr Sam White will return all the money he has raised – and that he will immediately stop asking people for money. The Resistance Movement is desperate for funds and I believe it is vital that any money available is spent wisely and quickly in ways which will help further our cause, promote the truth and save the vulnerable and the children.

Sam White could maybe get a job to meet his day to day living expenses while he is waiting for his case to be heard. There are tons of vacancies in various non health sectors.

I'm not taking Sam White's position in any way. I'm saying he has not (yet at least) lost his licence to practice medicine. A suspension from an Intermin Order Tribunal is not losing your license to practice medicine. I think someone said his youtube video that started this was in June/July? If only the GMC were so efficient. It takes years often to get to the stage of removing a medical license.

Totally support this ITU consultant - I am an ITU nurse of 20 plus years and my views are quite similar.

I did have my initial vaccines as I've never (as far as I know) had Covid, plus I am over 50 and a bit chubby so for me the risk/benefit analysis made sense.

However I really think he is super brave for standing up against the prevailing orthodoxy that natural immunity doesn't count. I'm totally against vaccine mandates - they are a disgrace.

What a surprise that the evangelists are trying to discredit him on spurious grounds. Classic

Can’t you just disagree with him and not personally attack him?