Do you still agree with mandatory vaccines for NHS?

[woollymammoths]

Not doing this to goad and completely respectful of people’s choices. But genuinely interested in opinions and any research that people are aware of.

At this point in time I am struggling to think of family and friends that do not have covid right now. Some are triple vaccinated, some are unvaccinated. There does not seem to be any distinct differences between how easily it was transmitted or how ill the individuals are - according to their vaccination status.

Example:
My DP is triple jabbed - he has had covid twice (once after 2 jabs, the second time after booster). More ill the second time, but still mild.

His (NHS) department is currently shut down with the amount of (triple jabbed) staff off sick with covid.

I caught covid from him.

I am unvaccinated - have had covid twice. Been unpleasant but not hospitalised. The second time milder than the first.

I am on mat leave but due to return to my NHS role.

Why am I still being forced to be vaccinated?

please do not say ‘just find another job’. That is not the point of my thread

Where do you get the idea that I'm hostile to any restrictions whatsoever? I've obeyed all lockdowns and I've been wearing a mask since they were first recommended. And I wear it properly, not hanging under my nose.

I'm failing to see the logic, ethics and compelling science behind mandating vaccines which have not finished their trials, and which are of limited efficacy and longevity, for health care workers who have had the disease.

You talk of risk but where is the data which shows that a recovered doctor who has antibodies and who regularly tests for infection is more of a risk to others than a doctor who was vaccinated months ago with vaccines that wane after 10 weeks?

I'm sorry but it's a position based in wishful thinking. Which I get. I wish the vaccines were better too. But they're not. And pointing that out is hardly "ranting on"

If posters agreeing with mandates are so worried about unvaccinated NHS staff being a risk to others they would have posted about writing to their MPs, joined campaigns to have these dangerous selfish staff sacked immediately not the end of March. If the fear for the vulnerable, was real we would have seen demands for their removal months ago. Just snapping at other posters no real action? I have wrote to my MP asking him to stop the mandate. 40 midwives in 1 service are refusing, how many more across the country? Services are going to be stretched, it’s a dangerous policy especially for mums to be & TUC want it halted too, there’s no most will change their minds & get it so not worry, they sound very concerned. www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/07/ministers-urged-to-delay-mandatory-covid-jabs-for-nhs-staff-in-england

I wondered about midwives in particular given the impact on menstrual cycle. If you are TTC it seems almost absurd to force this treatment into young women

Someone gave me cause for thought today regarding this mandate and the social care one.

It's a bit 'conspiracy theory' but I think there may be an element of truth there.

The person said that carers and NHS staff were starting to be listened to, people were taking note of the conditions they were working under, they were lauded heroes and angels and people raised money and donated things and thanked workers for doing their job and people started to have insight into the reality of it, and were being listened to and people were demanding change, calling for the government to be accountable.
This mandate has effectively removed credibility from those people, it could (and should have) been approached in so many different ways, but it hasn't, even if it started out as protecting the vulnerable, it's had the positive side effect for the government because people aren't listening now, they're not demanding change, they're not wanting answers and that means that things will continue exactly as they are. HCPs and carers are selfish, thick, idiots etc if they dare to even ask questions about the vaccine.
I can't understand why you would deliberately remove a % of a work force in two areas that a) are already struggling for staff and b) are relied upon heavily by society with absolutely no plan on how to deal with that, if your intention was to protect the vulnerable.

@SweetFelicityArkright

Someone gave me cause for thought today regarding this mandate and the social care one.

It's a bit 'conspiracy theory' but I think there may be an element of truth there.

The person said that carers and NHS staff were starting to be listened to, people were taking note of the conditions they were working under, they were lauded heroes and angels and people raised money and donated things and thanked workers for doing their job and people started to have insight into the reality of it, and were being listened to and people were demanding change, calling for the government to be accountable.
This mandate has effectively removed credibility from those people, it could (and should have) been approached in so many different ways, but it hasn't, even if it started out as protecting the vulnerable, it's had the positive side effect for the government because people aren't listening now, they're not demanding change, they're not wanting answers and that means that things will continue exactly as they are. HCPs and carers are selfish, thick, idiots etc if they dare to even ask questions about the vaccine.
I can't understand why you would deliberately remove a % of a work force in two areas that a) are already struggling for staff and b) are relied upon heavily by society with absolutely no plan on how to deal with that, if your intention was to protect the vulnerable.

Got friends who have been saying this since 2020, 1 was NHS, they lost a bright hard grafter because of this mandate. I believe them, there is no plan if the they will change their minds about the vaccine plan doesn’t work out, the NHS bosses are worried. about time those enforcing the mandate were called out, people need to direct the insults at them.

@RedToothBrush

Tbh beach i think you would disagree and protest whatever my thoughts were on the subject because you are so hostile to the idea of any restrictions whatsoever.

I've explained my position and why i think its reasonable and fair.

Perhaps we should turn this around and ask why you think its reasonable to expose others at risk when they are in a position of trust and authority and the patient has no other option but to be there (worker can choose to leave if they don't agree with vaccines).

I can't for the life of me understand why you would want to work for an employer who was encouraging vaccines for all but a tiny number of exceptions if you felt that was highly inappropriate and a significantly higher risk to you and others than covid itself. Especially if you regularly see covid patients or understand how much isolating is having an impact on colleagues and patients.

So i think Ive said my piece and leave you to rant on further.

As a rule I am pragmatic and lean towards on balance real world thinking. I'm not sure everyone does.

This.

Like Rafa Nadal says (re Djokovic). We all have choices but every choice has consequences.

People are free to refuse to trust science and medicine but equally hospitals and care homes are free to employ only those staff who do trust science and medicine.

Health and social care settings have a duty of care to their vulnerable patients. Bereaved families would have every right to take legal action if their loved one was put at unnecessary risk (including being around unvaccinated staff).

The legal precedent for new safety regulations coming in after someone is already in a job was set years ago. Eg. Gas safe (previously corgi) registration requirements for plumbers to work with boilers, etc.

If somebody doesn't trust in science and medicine, it's probably best that they don't work in a science and medicine based environment, and instead seek more appropriate alternative employment.

In society, rights come with responsibilities.

@Tealightsandd

Like Rafa Nadal says (re Djokovic). We all have choices but every choice has consequences.

People are free to refuse to trust science and medicine but equally hospitals and care homes are free to employ only those staff who do trust science and medicine.

Health and social care settings have a duty of care to their vulnerable patients. Bereaved families would have every right to take legal action if their loved one was put at unnecessary risk (including being around unvaccinated staff).

The legal precedent for new safety regulations coming in after someone is already in a job was set years ago. Eg. Gas safe (previously corgi) registration requirements for plumbers to work with boilers, etc.

If somebody doesn't trust in science and medicine, it's probably best that they don't work in a science and medicine based environment, and instead seek more appropriate alternative employment.

The unions are not saying this, they want the mandate dropped, NHS bosses are not telling us this either, just that they are worried they are going to have to close services & the one in charge of kings hospital, looks like he’s going to keel over saying he might lose 1000 staff. The mandate is going to do more harm than any good, NHS bosses know it.

The fact that King's has so many unsafe and/or unsuitable staff in the first place is deeply concerning.

1000 staff members who don't trust science and medicine working in a science and medicine based environment!

Lack of regard for vulnerable patients.

Too late in the immediate term, but in future they need to amend their recruitment process.

@Tealightsandd

1000 staff members who don't trust science and medicine working in a science and medicine based environment!

Get campaigning to have unsafe unvaxxed nhs staff made redundant with immediate effect, tell the MPs, get others to write to them about their unsuitability, my moneys in you getting zero support, good luck.

[quote RachC2021]@thickthighs73 if genuinely medically exempt then they’re genuinely medically exempt. I’d expect a full risk assessment to be done though — perhaps they have to wear FFP3 masks when other staff only need a surgical mask. Perhaps in a situation where other staff would wear FFP3 they can’t work in and have to work in a different area. I’m not an expert.

What currently happens with other mandatory jabs?[/quote]
There aren’t any other vaccines mandated by law.

There aren’t any other vaccines mandated by law.

For certain HCP, yes there are.

And, outside of health and social care - in many different industries, there are all sorts of safety regulations that have become mandatory over the years.

[quote Chinzia]If posters agreeing with mandates are so worried about unvaccinated NHS staff being a risk to others they would have posted about writing to their MPs, joined campaigns to have these dangerous selfish staff sacked immediately not the end of March. If the fear for the vulnerable, was real we would have seen demands for their removal months ago. Just snapping at other posters no real action? I have wrote to my MP asking him to stop the mandate. 40 midwives in 1 service are refusing, how many more across the country? Services are going to be stretched, it’s a dangerous policy especially for mums to be & TUC want it halted too, there’s no most will change their minds & get it so not worry, they sound very concerned. www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/07/ministers-urged-to-delay-mandatory-covid-jabs-for-nhs-staff-in-england[/quote]
Or perhaps campaigned for increased resource to persuade people? Or help those with barriers such as language barriers or needle phobias, or set up helplines to discuss concerns. Or maybe even a cash bonus for those taking the vaccine!
Not to mention it’s not mandatory for patients or visitors who have lower rates of vaccinations and are much more numerous than staff, and are not trained in infection control/PPE. Makes a nonsense of it really

@Tealightsandd

There aren’t any other vaccines mandated by law.

For certain HCP, yes there are.

And, outside of health and social care - in many different industries, there are all sorts of safety regulations that have become mandatory over the years.

Which are mandated in law then?

What, vaccines? Don't know if by law (in the UK) but for example TB vaccines are mandated by most employers (the hospitals).

Freedom works both ways. Just as an individual has freedom to refuse a life and health saving vaccine, the employer has the freedom to require certain safety measures are complied with.

Outside of healthcare, I've already given the example of gas safe (previously corgi) registration for plumbers working with boilers. Of course there are various other safety regulations across different industries that are mandated by law.

Of course there's also the law regarding healthcare settings duty of care to their patients.

tealight what does “they don’t trust science” mean?

What is “science”?

It is not fixed or absolute. It is ever changing - never more so than during a pandemic

"The United States has had vaccination mandates in place since the late 1970s," says Lee Hampton, a paediatrician and medical epidemiologist with Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance. And Italy requires children to be vaccinated against a range of pathogens, such as hepatitis B, diphtheria, pertussis, poliovirus, tetanus, Haemophilus influenzae type b, measles, mumps, rubella and varicella.

According to Hampton, "the mandates themselves… hadn't really caused any issues. What has caused changes over time in those types of contexts is when what’s being mandated changes." This pattern has been seen, for example, with new requirements for vaccination against hepatitis B, anthrax and of course now Covid-19.

Vaccination is now required in some cases for school attendance (for example, against hepatitis B in Slovenia), for organ transplants (some parts of the UK require them for kidney transplants) – and in one extreme case in Italy, to retain custody of children. Penalties for non-compliance are most often educational or financial.

@BungleandGeorge

@Beadebaser since this is UK legislation being discussed I was enquiring which vaccines es are already mandated by law in the UK?

@Tealightsandd
So you can’t provide any evidence for your statement “ For certain HCP, yes there are.” ?
Why make statements which are factually incorrect?

Statements about any mandatory requirements relating to anything other than medical treatment are totally irrelevant

Do you think people need to be more flexible in their beliefs when faced with emergency situation?
I would say - in principle - I’m against too much censorship, I’m pro choice, I’m pro freedom. I wouldn’t ordinarily be in favour of a vaccine mandate.
However I can see that I may need to adapt these principles when there is a crisis, when we need to help other people.

For example - if I need to restrict my freedoms temporarily because it is for the good of the whole/so we can all function together as a society - doesn’t that not only help others, but ultimately myself.

If we act cohesively - surely that goal of freedom will be achieved more quickly than with a divided society.

@BungleandGeorge

Vaccine mandates are being considered globally though, and across Europe - so I think it’s really important to not just see it as a UK/Boris type decision.

@BungleandGeorge in fact, I think we are LESS likely than other European countries to have a mandate. And whether that’s right or not…. I think a Tory government is less likely to lockdown and impose restrictions.