Do you still agree with mandatory vaccines for NHS?

[woollymammoths]

Not doing this to goad and completely respectful of people’s choices. But genuinely interested in opinions and any research that people are aware of.

At this point in time I am struggling to think of family and friends that do not have covid right now. Some are triple vaccinated, some are unvaccinated. There does not seem to be any distinct differences between how easily it was transmitted or how ill the individuals are - according to their vaccination status.

Example:
My DP is triple jabbed - he has had covid twice (once after 2 jabs, the second time after booster). More ill the second time, but still mild.

His (NHS) department is currently shut down with the amount of (triple jabbed) staff off sick with covid.

I caught covid from him.

I am unvaccinated - have had covid twice. Been unpleasant but not hospitalised. The second time milder than the first.

I am on mat leave but due to return to my NHS role.

Why am I still being forced to be vaccinated?

please do not say ‘just find another job’. That is not the point of my thread

My mother has complex needs. I don’t want her looked after by a fucking teacher or someone else’s family member.

Meant to quote this on my above post.

I wonder if teachers and volunteers will have to be triple vaxxed.

@MarbleQueen

Mandatory jabs have had a devastating effect on care homes.

Some councils are now asking teachers to volunteer and for family’s to volunteer. Some homes have had to close and there is a growing number of elderly people in hospital who are blocking beds because they can’t go to care homes.

My mother has complex needs. I don’t want her looked after by a fucking teacher or someone else’s family member.

Haven't teachers got plenty to do already?

What the stats in the report I posted do show is that BMI is risk factor regardless of vaccination status

They do, but your 80% figure of obese patients is way off. It's about 50%.

A BMI 25-30 is not "obese" (if you'd said "overweight" that would have been true, but unhelpful without population statistics to contextualise it) and these people are a large proportion of the general pop. If you look at the diagram on p31 there is a comparison showing that the proportion of overweight (not obese) patients receiving critical care is smaller than expected from the proportion of them in the general population. Obese is higher, yes.

Yes

@HarrietteNightingale

What the stats in the report I posted do show is that BMI is risk factor regardless of vaccination status

They do, but your 80% figure of obese patients is way off. It's about 50%.

A BMI 25-30 is not "obese" (if you'd said "overweight" that would have been true, but unhelpful without population statistics to contextualise it) and these people are a large proportion of the general pop. If you look at the diagram on p31 there is a comparison showing that the proportion of overweight (not obese) patients receiving critical care is smaller than expected from the proportion of them in the general population. Obese is higher, yes.

Yes you are correct my original post should have clarified that a proportion are ioverweight but still a large % (around 50%) were BMI over 30 and the rest overweight.

26% of people in the UK are obese (BMI 30+)
36% are overweight (BMI 25-30)
With that kind of statistic 50% of any random sampling of anything are likely to be overweight.
The people registered at your dentist
The people in the bus queue
The mums at school
And yes, Covid patients in hospital.
Adding to the fact that being overweight leads to cardiovascular problems, diabetes and other nasties, you can extrapolate why slightly more than half of people seriously affected by Covid would be overweight. It's never been the being overweight itself that exacerbates Covid, but the fact that being overweight leads to a host of other comorbidities that does.

@PAFMO

26% of people in the UK are obese (BMI 30+) 36% are overweight (BMI 25-30) With that kind of statistic 50% of any random sampling of anything are likely to be overweight. The people registered at your dentist The people in the bus queue The mums at school And yes, Covid patients in hospital. Adding to the fact that being overweight leads to cardiovascular problems, diabetes and other nasties, you can extrapolate why slightly more than half of people seriously affected by Covid would be overweight. It's never been the being overweight itself that exacerbates Covid, but the fact that being overweight leads to a host of other comorbidities that does.

Yes exactly which is why more focus needs to be placed on people lowering their BMI in tacking this crisis, it’s been 2 years now and this information has been known from early on.

Weight as you point out causes such a wide variety of health problems that it already puts significant stress on the NHS.

What is your point with all your posts about obesity @userperuser?

As has been explained to you, multiple times, obesity is complex, it's been a public health emergency for at least the last 10 years. Huge efforts (along with money being poured into it) have gone into preventing and treating it, with limited success. Obesity & associated complications take up a significant proportion of the NHS budget.

But this is completely seperate to vaccination, and is just another way to try and discourage vaccination.

If you are a non-obese adult, it is still beneficial to you and society (and the patients you're caring for) to be vaccinated. There are significant amounts of non-obese unvaccinated people who would have better outcomes if they had been vaccinated, and who have contributed to overall transmission.

As I've said reams of times, this doesn't mean someone should be vaccinated if they don't want to, but it's just a weird thing to try and divert to repeatedly.

riveted1

How have you come to the conclusion that by discussing the role of BMI in relation to poor covid outcomes is a way to discourage vaccination? That’s way off the mark and I’m really struggling to see how you reached it.

I’m discussing the role of BMI in the context of pressure on the NHS as it’s very clear from a large proportion of responses on this thread that some posters think it’s as simple as ‘blame the unvaccinated for hospital admissions’ when then very far from the truth, I’m pointing out how significant BMI is a factor regardless of vaccination status and if you have fully read all of my posts I’ve said more than once that the vaccines have done their job in largely preventing serious illness and death in the most vulnerable groups but clearly more can be done and it’s now time to focus on what other things can play a part in that and clearly reducing BMI is one in addition to vaccination.

How many would still support their NHS colleagues being unvaccinated if they worked with vulnerable people they care for (as in emotionally care for and worry about) had to cover their work as they now have to be protected to stay at work, lose their booked annual leave because they are having to self isolate

I know what the answer no one would be. No one at work is in support of staff not being vaccinated working with patients/residents/clients who are vulnerable because we are concerned foe them. And no one is at all happy about more pressure being put on them and losing hooked leave

It’s utter bollocks that anyone would be still be supportive of having the right to choose as no one is that selfless

*booked leave

riveted1

I’m not bumbleymummy and that’s incredibly paranoid to suggest that, I will report your accusation and request that @MNHQ confirm to you that we are indeed completely unrelated posters.

You just happen to disagree with my standpoint (and probably the other poster too) and that’s fine it’s part of healthy debate until it turns into paranoid false accusations.

I just pointed out you are copying their arguments and now their phrases word-for-word, it seems a little excessive to start throwing terms like "paranoid" around @userperuser

Yes like they have to be for hepatitis i think , unless there is a medical reason and this would be very few anyway

No problem I’ve reported your post and asked MN to confirm to you that I am in no way connected.

It’s almost as if people could have similar options and speak the same language 🤷🏻‍♀️

Opinions.

@userperuser you are aware that being underweight also causes issues ? As does smoking , drinking etc too easy to always blame someones bmi
My nan is 88 high bmi always has been prob less in last couple years , shes 88 though , has diabetes in last 2 years controlled by tablets though and very slight high blood pressure but other than that bmi hasn't hugely impacted her health so sometimes its more complex than just bmi, my other nan was the same she lived until 88 too , ny bmi isn't good and im working on it but healthier than my similar age auntie who is underweight , maybe there is some genetic factors who knows but more complex I think than just bmi, although getting it down is helpful obviously

worriedatthemoment

Yes I’m aware re underweight, I had this issue with my first pregnancy (never an issue since!).

It is a hugely complex issue and other things to cause issues but the stats are showing high BMI to be a significant factor in terms of covid, obviously the vast majority of people with high BMI will recover from covid as thankfully it has a good recovery rate anyway.

Don’t medical staff have the vaccines as part of the contract they sign.

Front line staff have to have certain vaccines

But they can only add that to new contracts. That’s why they have been given I think six months notice get vaccinated or you loose your job (some I think can be redeployed)

@Pasithea

Don’t medical staff have the vaccines as part of the contract they sign.

It's dependent on specific role - 'flu vaccine is mandated for certain positions as is hepatitis B and some others.

The GMC states that staff should be innoculated against "relevant" communicable diseases so it is certainly not a new concept to have requirements for vaccination for patient facing roles.

The difference is that one though.
A vaccine for hepatitis B, polio etc… are vaccines that are working. In that they are the nest tool we’ve had to eradicate the illness. They work.
Thé covid vaccine doesn’t work like that. In part because of all the new variants coming.

So as a vaccine it’s closer to the flu vaccine. Also mandatory in some cases. Except that agin it’s actually not the case. The flu vaccine keeps its efficiency. You know you will be covered for the whole of winter and beyond.
Thé covid vaccine we are told is only really efficient for 10 weeks. 4~5 months later? Nope doesn’t work anymore….Which makes it a crap vaccine really.

As far as I am concerned the so called covid vaccine is NOT a vaccine. It’s closer to a prophylactic drug that protects you for a couple of months. It doesn’t have the scope of a vaccine to eradicate an illness. It doesn’t even have the LT effect.

Once you look at it that way, the question isn’t whether you should have a vaccine like all the others we’ve been happy to have (with good reasons).
The question is whether you are happy to have a prophylactic medication that has some serious side effects. And to have it regularly. And to pay for it. At £15 the dose, can we afford to pay for 3, 4 doses each year for 40 millions people (assuming we stil dont ‘vaccinate’ under 12yo)? Where is the magic money tree?

@Walking4You

The difference is that one though. A vaccine for hepatitis B, polio etc… are vaccines that are working. In that they are the nest tool we’ve had to eradicate the illness. They work. Thé covid vaccine doesn’t work like that. In part because of all the new variants coming.

So as a vaccine it’s closer to the flu vaccine. Also mandatory in some cases. Except that agin it’s actually not the case. The flu vaccine keeps its efficiency. You know you will be covered for the whole of winter and beyond.
Thé covid vaccine we are told is only really efficient for 10 weeks. 4~5 months later? Nope doesn’t work anymore….Which makes it a crap vaccine really.

As far as I am concerned the so called covid vaccine is NOT a vaccine. It’s closer to a prophylactic drug that protects you for a couple of months. It doesn’t have the scope of a vaccine to eradicate an illness. It doesn’t even have the LT effect.

Once you look at it that way, the question isn’t whether you should have a vaccine like all the others we’ve been happy to have (with good reasons).
The question is whether you are happy to have a prophylactic medication that has some serious side effects. And to have it regularly. And to pay for it. At £15 the dose, can we afford to pay for 3, 4 doses each year for 40 millions people (assuming we stil dont ‘vaccinate’ under 12yo)? Where is the magic money tree?

The flu vaccines often haven't been completely effective though, one we had in 2017 turned out to be only 30-40% effective.

Still worth giving it to people though.

Re cost, vaccines are probably a lot cheaper than lockdown or life under significant restrictions. in terms of cost to he economy, education etc