Do you still agree with mandatory vaccines for NHS?

[woollymammoths]

Not doing this to goad and completely respectful of people’s choices. But genuinely interested in opinions and any research that people are aware of.

At this point in time I am struggling to think of family and friends that do not have covid right now. Some are triple vaccinated, some are unvaccinated. There does not seem to be any distinct differences between how easily it was transmitted or how ill the individuals are - according to their vaccination status.

Example:
My DP is triple jabbed - he has had covid twice (once after 2 jabs, the second time after booster). More ill the second time, but still mild.

His (NHS) department is currently shut down with the amount of (triple jabbed) staff off sick with covid.

I caught covid from him.

I am unvaccinated - have had covid twice. Been unpleasant but not hospitalised. The second time milder than the first.

I am on mat leave but due to return to my NHS role.

Why am I still being forced to be vaccinated?

please do not say ‘just find another job’. That is not the point of my thread

[quote Beadebaser]@BungleandGeorge

Vaccine mandates are being considered globally though, and across Europe - so I think it’s really important to not just see it as a UK/Boris type decision.[/quote]
That’s all irrelevant to the question asked though!

So many people come on and churn out ‘facts’ to suit themselves and then unsurprisingly can’t back them up or try to bluster through. If you’re going to have a meaningful debate and challenge someone you need to have the correct facts. Which unfortunately sajid javid didn’t.

Honestly from a isolation point of view I can see why we need it, if your husband who is vaccinated is exposed he can still work. If you who isn't vaccinated it exposed your off for ten days regardless of the fact you have natural antibodies. Until BJ drops that requirement I would support mandatory forced vaccination of everyone for the economic benefit. I do think we should just let it go and let nature take her course but until we have a policy like that vaccination is the only option under the current rules.

I have been in hospital four times since having my covid jabs. It has left me bed bound unable to eat.

Make your own choices for your body.

[quote BungleandGeorge]@Tealightsandd
So you can’t provide any evidence for your statement “ For certain HCP, yes there are.” ?
Why make statements which are factually incorrect?

Statements about any mandatory requirements relating to anything other than medical treatment are totally irrelevant[/quote]
Erm, I was in bed, and then a busy day. I'm a fast typer and good multi tasker, but even so I do actually have other things to do than be on here all day and all night. Including sleep.

There is evidence. Various Trust requirements. And, if you check over similar threads over the last couple of months you'll see various HCPs writing about those requirements.

And the non medical setting safety measures are relevant wrt legal precedent for new safety regulations coming in after somebody is already in a particular job.

@Tealightsandd yes you replied on this very thread 25 minutes after I asked though
You don’t know any examples then? Probably because there aren’t any.

Well except for the ones I've referred to

I'm going to watch some old Rainbow episodes on YouTube later I think. Used to love the theme tune.

@Tealightsandd

Well except for the ones I've referred to

I'm going to watch some old Rainbow episodes on YouTube later I think. Used to love the theme tune.

‘Up above the streets and house....rainbow climbing high‘ 🌈 🎵 🎶

@Kitkat151

Paint the whole world with a rainbow!
🌈

I'm with you OP. I'm clinically exempt until August (pregnant) but then presumably will be dismissed.

My team is already down 2 full time nurse posts because we cannot recruit. I am a very experienced nurse who regularly works extra shifts to ensure cover. And, in the last 2 years, I am the only person in the team who has not had covid. Some have had it several times.

On a personal level the benefits do not outweigh the risks. Yes I am a nurse, but I am also a person. I don't believe I should have to be forced into having a vaccine that remains in a clinical trial or lose my job. Particularly as it would not prevent me from potentially passing on the virus to my patients. And also as it has a range of fairly serious possible side effects.

A family member died following his vaccine. I am deeply sceptical of the side effects and death numbers after our experience where we had to fight with pathologists and coroners to change the wording in their report and do a yellow card report. Initially it was simply reported as a natural death because it was due to a blood clot. No one wished to look into the cause of that blood clot or report on it without weeks of intensely distressing conversations. This all undoubtedly affects my view but I think my view is still valid.

I stand with the 100k. And actually, I believe there are more of us than that.

Are you not concerned about the higher risks Covid poses to pregnant women Rubberduckies?

I'd have thought also that an experienced nurse would trust science and medicine.

My cousin caught Covid when unvaccinated and pregnant (before the advice changed). She ended up in hospital and had her baby premature. Thankfully both mum and baby are doing well now but it was a distressing experience (she's now fully vaccinated).

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/pregnant-women-vaccine-booster-campaign-b1989539.html

Also given that Covid is a vascular and inflammatory disease that is known to cause clotting, it's very likely that your family member's clot was the result of a Covid infection caught just before, during, or shortly after the vaccination.

I'm very sorry for your loss

YANBU

There was perhaps a case for Delta when it reduced transmission - but not with Omicron.

The way that everyone reacted to the doctor who didnt want the jab - makes me realise this isnt about covid protection, the greater good or antibodies (because he had antibodies).

Its about getting the vaccine for the sake of having had the vaccine.

I cant really deduce any reasoning for that. But the passion with which it is said is one of a fear or anger response. I have one new theory that really those who have been vaccinated are also deep down somewhere in the psyche unsure about the vaccine and so they want everyone to be in the same boat IYSWIM.

I cant really deduce any reasoning for that.

Well lucky for you, those people with the actual expert knowledge - virologists and immunologists, have done that for you. It's very easy to look up what they're saying. As well as official publications, plenty of them are on social media very clearly explaining the benefits of vaccination.

As far as I was aware Tealightsandd ; The virologists & immunologists suggest the vaccine to promote the production of antibodies - to reduce risk of infection, transmission and illness. If someone already has antibodies then its a mute point.

What reason do virologists/ immunologists give for getting the vaccine for the sake of having had the vaccine ?

What reason do virologists/ immunologists give for getting the vaccine for the sake of having had the vaccine

They don't.

Exactly!

So why on earth should the doc with antibodies have to have the vaccine?!

mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/Vaccineswork

This is a good one (of many good ones) from Homerton Hospital in Hackney, London's Anaesthesia Department.

All of our anaesthetists are fully vaccinated against COVID-19. We have seen the devastation that the virus has wreaked on our patients. We want to protect them, our families and ourselves. #VaccinesWork #VaccinesSaveLives

Would love to read it Tealights.

You have sent a hashtag search rather than the tweet. Is it possible to resend?

Sorry Lemon I don't use twitter (and clearly don't understand how to!). DP told me about the tweets.

Type #Vaccineswork into the search box and you'll see loads of the tweets.

For the Homerton one, look up Homerton Anaesthesia Dept. Their twitter name is @HUHgas

My task for tomorrow is learning twitter!

Dw I found it -

twitter.com/HUHgas/status/1480291631576322056

This is just a tweet with the words you posted above;
All of our anaesthetists are fully vaccinated against COVID-19. We have seen the devastation that the virus has wreaked on our patients. We want to protect them, our families and ourselves. #VaccinesWork #VaccinesSaveLives

That still isn't explaining to me why someone who already has antibodies needs the vaccine.

Now in the general population I can understand to some extent the drama - because they have no way to measure their antibody levels.

But those in NHS and social care do - we are eligible for antibody testing. I have one sat right in front of me and will be milking my finger tomorrow.

Why if it comes back positive should I go and get another vaccine; except for the sake of getting the vaccine for vaccines sake.

Its still beyond me. I cannot deduce the reasoning.

Having antibodies doesn't stop reinfection particularly with new mutations. You're right that vaccines don't necessarily stop infection either - but with a booster, they do reduce the risk of serious illness and death, and can also help protect others, eg. vulnerable patients.

If the majority of doctors and scientists worldwide - particularly those whose area of expertise is in virology or immunology, say it's a good idea to get vaccinated, it's worth taking their expert advice.

Remember we can't go by other viruses. SARS-COV-2 is likely an accidental leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (and possibly human modified and so not completely natural).

Given this, it's sensible listening to the virologists and immunologists, and taking all easy precaution to protect ourselves - and others.

Isn't it best to trust the advice of the people who work in this area everyday - the expert virologists and immunologists, who've spent years studying viruses and the immune system?

That said, you're right that vaccines don't always prevent infection and aren't 100% effective. Definitely an arsenal is always better than a single weapon.

I do hope that in the future, as well as more of the rest of the world vaccinated, there will be increased manufacturing and availability of the new treatments like the antivirals and the monoclonal antibodies such as sotrovimab.

Also simple mitigation measures like FFP3s (N95s) and HEPA filters or corsi-rosenthal boxes particularly for health and social care settings. Useful in schools and other indoor spaces too.

Covid is an airborne disease and good ventilation is so important.

@Rubberduckies

I'm with you OP. I'm clinically exempt until August (pregnant) but then presumably will be dismissed.

My team is already down 2 full time nurse posts because we cannot recruit. I am a very experienced nurse who regularly works extra shifts to ensure cover. And, in the last 2 years, I am the only person in the team who has not had covid. Some have had it several times.

On a personal level the benefits do not outweigh the risks. Yes I am a nurse, but I am also a person. I don't believe I should have to be forced into having a vaccine that remains in a clinical trial or lose my job. Particularly as it would not prevent me from potentially passing on the virus to my patients. And also as it has a range of fairly serious possible side effects.

A family member died following his vaccine. I am deeply sceptical of the side effects and death numbers after our experience where we had to fight with pathologists and coroners to change the wording in their report and do a yellow card report. Initially it was simply reported as a natural death because it was due to a blood clot. No one wished to look into the cause of that blood clot or report on it without weeks of intensely distressing conversations. This all undoubtedly affects my view but I think my view is still valid.

I stand with the 100k. And actually, I believe there are more of us than that.

There's such a level of misinterpretation in this post - deliberate or otherwise - that the fact you say you are a nurse is troubling. Yes, you're a person, but you are also a nurse, and we would expect nurses to have a reasonable grasp of medical information and to be able critically assess data. I don't see this here.

The experts arent saying that though.

They are saying natural immunity doesn't wane for 450 days...

Reassuringly, those who were infected in the first wave back in Spring 2020, we also found that the protection from a previous COVID-19 infection didn’t wane, up to 450 days after the infection, independent of whether the person was vaccinated or not.

When they are also saying we need boosters - I assume because the vaccine has waned?

Theres a really nice graph on there to show the difference between natural and vaccine immunity. The vaccines are slightly higher - but is it really by a significant amount? Especially if they wane quicker than natural immunity.

I agree there is still so much we don't know. I have only had the vaccines (double jabbed last Dec 2019/March 2020); and haven't had COVID. So its interesting to see whether I will still have antibodies deemed acceptable levels.

I will let you know the results if your interested?