Do you still agree with mandatory vaccines for NHS?

[woollymammoths]

Not doing this to goad and completely respectful of people’s choices. But genuinely interested in opinions and any research that people are aware of.

At this point in time I am struggling to think of family and friends that do not have covid right now. Some are triple vaccinated, some are unvaccinated. There does not seem to be any distinct differences between how easily it was transmitted or how ill the individuals are - according to their vaccination status.

Example:
My DP is triple jabbed - he has had covid twice (once after 2 jabs, the second time after booster). More ill the second time, but still mild.

His (NHS) department is currently shut down with the amount of (triple jabbed) staff off sick with covid.

I caught covid from him.

I am unvaccinated - have had covid twice. Been unpleasant but not hospitalised. The second time milder than the first.

I am on mat leave but due to return to my NHS role.

Why am I still being forced to be vaccinated?

please do not say ‘just find another job’. That is not the point of my thread

[quote RachC2021]@thickthighs73 if genuinely medically exempt then they’re genuinely medically exempt. I’d expect a full risk assessment to be done though — perhaps they have to wear FFP3 masks when other staff only need a surgical mask. Perhaps in a situation where other staff would wear FFP3 they can’t work in and have to work in a different area. I’m not an expert.

What currently happens with other mandatory jabs?[/quote]
Perhaps your previous post should have reflected this than some throwaway comment about everyone in the NHS

There does not seem to be any distinct differences between how easily it was transmitted or how ill the individuals are - according to their vaccination status.

But that isn't what the data shows. Surely you understand the difference between your anecdotal experience and the aggregated data?

If NHS staff were allowed to reserve the right not to be vaccinated, I reserve my right not to be treated by them. Further if an HCP can't assess probability and see the argument for vaccination, I question their competency in a role that requires dealing with complex information and a high degree of accuracy.

I don’t have a problem with it from the point of view of fairness to the employees, because I think it’s reasonable to want to reduce transmission as much as possible.

My concern is more whether it will cause staff shortages which actually result in a net reduction in quality of care

@BrocolliHamster

It is a small minority if people now who have chosen not to be vaccinated, although the way some people on here talk about it you'd think there was a massive problem with uptake. The vast vast majority of people have been vaccinated, let's just leave the people who don't to it.

I am against mandatory vaccination, especially as being vaccinated does not stop you getting or passing on the virus.

We can't just leave them to it, though, can we? Because they're crippling the NHS?

I am also against mandatory vaccination because I do believe in the principle of bodily autonomy, but I do think vaccines should be mandatory for front line NHS staff.

No I don’t.
I do think that all staff should have good PPE as both vaccinated and vaccinated can spread it.
We’re being told that the booster only lasts 10 weeks and Sir Andrew Pollard (chair of JCVI) says boosting every adult every 4-6 months is not sustainable and only the vulnerable should be targeted going forward.
Makes total sense.

There's been mandatory vaccines in the NHS for years.

I don't get the relevance of the (triple jabbed)about your DH department shut.
Of course there off if they test positive nothing to do with jab .

Jab don't stop you getting it reduce symptom and there doesn't eliminate transmission but reduces it .

Do you ever question any of the drugs you give to your patients

I did & still do oppose mandatory Covid vaccs for anyone

"We can't just leave them to it, though, can we? Because they're crippling the NHS?

I am also against mandatory vaccination because I do believe in the principle of bodily autonomy, but I do think vaccines should be mandatory for front line NHS staff."

@AlexaShutUp

So it's okay for Tom, dick and Harry to cripple the NHS but not front line NHs staff 🤔

I’ve never agreed with it.

@RosesAndHellebores

If NHS staff were allowed to reserve the right not to be vaccinated, I reserve my right not to be treated by them. Further if an HCP can't assess probability and see the argument for vaccination, I question their competency in a role that requires dealing with complex information and a high degree of accuracy.

You always reserve the right not to be treated by someone.

I absolutely believe in vaccination. I'm not, in any way, anti vax. I'm full vaccinated for everything avaliable to me on the NHS. I work in the NHS. I've had the hep B vaccines. I had the full course, and the blood test showed that I am non immune. So I now have to work without immunity. I accept that risk. There isn't another option.
There is no mandatory vaccine programme for NHS staff, so this is the first time this has been thrown up as an issue. What makes me incredibly uncomfortable is that no other vaccine is mandatory. I am very concerned about the future when it comes to things that employees will have to do as "mandatory". It feels like a slippery slope.
It isn't the fact that it is a vaccine as such, but the fact that we are being effectively forced to do something.

@AlexaShutUp

There does not seem to be any distinct differences between how easily it was transmitted or how ill the individuals are - according to their vaccination status.

But that isn't what the data shows. Surely you understand the difference between your anecdotal experience and the aggregated data?

*what the Delta data shows

@backtoworktomorrow81

"We can't just leave them to it, though, can we? Because they're crippling the NHS?

I am also against mandatory vaccination because I do believe in the principle of bodily autonomy, but I do think vaccines should be mandatory for front line NHS staff."

@AlexaShutUp

So it's okay for Tom, dick and Harry to cripple the NHS but not front line NHs staff 🤔

I think if you work in the NHS, it's reasonable to expect you a) to take reasonable steps to protect vulnerable patients and b) to protect your employer from being totally overwhelmed. It is a reasonable occupational requirement, in my opinion, and if you are unwilling to comply, you probably aren't suitable for the role any more. (I do believe that there should be exemptions and reasonable adjustments for staff who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons - limited patient contact, for instance).

Lots of jobs have specific requirements. That's a significant step away from taking away all personal choice entirely.

No. Never did. Plus if you can still catch/spread the virus when you are fully vaccinated then the mandate isn't fit for purpose.

what the delta data shows

If the percentages of unvaccinated people in icu are to be believed, the same applies to omicron.

@AlexaShutUp

But you can still catch/spread the virus when you are fully vaccinated.

I work for the NHS and I'm fully vaccinated myself, double and boosted, but don't agree with mandate. FWIW all colleagues off with covid have been jabbed.

@AlexaShutUp

what the delta data shows

If the percentages of unvaccinated people in icu are to be believed, the same applies to omicron.

Sorry you’re right, but I meant in terms of transmission

[quote backtoworktomorrow81]@AlexaShutUp

But you can still catch/spread the virus when you are fully vaccinated.

I work for the NHS and I'm fully vaccinated myself, double and boosted, but don't agree with mandate. FWIW all colleagues off with covid have been jabbed. [/quote]
I'm well aware that you can still catch it and spread it when fully vaccinated - I caught it myself after being double jabbed.

However, the data from delta seems clear that you are less likely to spread it if you have been vaccinated. True, we don't have omicron data yet about spread, but the vaccines are clearly still having an impact on serious disease, so it seems strange to leap to the assumption that they have suddenly stopped making any difference to the spread.

The vaccines aren't perfect, of course, but they're the best thing we have at the moment!

@Nappyvalley15

No. Never did. Plus if you can still catch/spread the virus when you are fully vaccinated then the mandate isn't fit for purpose.

If you can still be killed while wearing a seatbelt, seatbelts aren't fit for purpose and should not be mandated.

I think if NHS employees have health issues that means they can’t have the vaccinations, then they shouldn’t but whether or not they are vaccinated, then they will deffo get Covid working in a hospital.

I don’t agree that anyone should be made to take the vaccination though, that’s not right.

Yes, if I or my loved ones are in hospital,
I wouldn't want any extra risk from unvaccinated staff.

OP, you have loads of anecdotes but as you know the scientists and doctors have looked
At the full set of evidence and it is clear cut - vaccinated people are less likely to catch the virus or spread it.

But if you are medical professional, you'd understand the principle of vaccination, surely?
If everyone took the stance and decided to not get vaccinated, vaccine won't work, and we will still have outbreaks of preventable diseases.
People in other jobs, maybe. But if people who treat sick and vulnerable not doing best to protect them, I just simply don't want to be their patient.

Is the current staff shortage a bit of a scary peak through to what March could look like? That scares me.

But it does reduce transmission. The balance for us to consider is whether this reduction warrants mandatory vaccination.

When the mandate was first discussed and started to be drawn up for social care, the vaccine program was around 5/6 months in at that point - surely not enough time to have enough data to decide that mandatory vaccination would be beneficial? Happened anyway.
It's worrying because they knew it would send social care over the edge and did nothing to stop that, nothing to mitigate the loss of positions, it's really quite frightening what the concequences could be if the same approach is taken towards mandatory vaccination and loss of staff in the NHS and precisely naff all is done to plan for that and deal with it.
It'll likely be the final nail in the coffin as far as the NHS is concerned.