Page 13 | Covid: Liverpool's intensive care wards full of young unvaccinated patients

EnidSpyton · 24/12/2021 11:40

@ivykaty44

But it seems not that many people on mumsnet are actually able to think particularly critically and have been so manipulated by the fear-mongering in the media that they now genuinely believe it's perfectly justified to have what are essentially eugenicist beliefs

Perhaps look at your own thinking, its not very critical and when pointed out you ignore those pulling apart your thinking and move on coming across as sanctimonious as before

How is my thinking not critical?

Who has tried to 'pull apart' my thinking? Who have I ignored?

I'm sorry if you find it sanctimonious to try and encourage people to be nice to each other. How sad.

clopper · 24/12/2021 11:42

enidspyton
But it seems compassion and kindness are sorely missing in society at the moment. Apparently all the pandemic has taught some people is to turn on one another. Which, as I keep saying, is exactly what the government wants us to do, because it absolves them of all blame and responsibility. It saddens me that so many people - many of them very left wing, supposedly liberal people - have allowed themselves to be so terrified by this virus that it has led them to treat other people as nothing but vectors of disease. It is so dehumanising and divisive.

What a great post. You have summed up very eloquently my thoughts on this issue.

Piggyinblankets · 24/12/2021 11:51

Just checking enid. This is the coronavirus board. What thread starters on the board would meet your approval? Let's say not vaccination. I agree there are too many threads perhaps on this. But what else then?

Original poster

DumplingsAndStew · 24/12/2021 11:53

@EnidSpyton

I'm sorry if you find it sanctimonious to try and encourage people to be nice to each other. How sad.

It is sanctimonious to pretend to encourage niceties whilst simultaneously continuously being rude, patronising and dismissive of other people. I might not always be able to read the subtleties in the written word, but your intentions are glaringly obvious, and hypocritical.

OP posts:

MarshaBradyo · 24/12/2021 11:54

BogRoll very good post and I found it quite emotive.

I agree listening is key. I’m glad you were helped by the volunteers

Telling people they are part of a problem never gets the results you’d like. Better off to ask people what would help as it means they can help put together a solution.

oftenbaffled · 24/12/2021 11:54

If be nice means not ever being able to have a negative view on people’s actions

Then “be nice” can do one

Original poster

DumplingsAndStew · 24/12/2021 11:58

@BogRollBOGOF

Your local area sound like the perfect example of getting it right. Are they known to generally have a cohesive effective NHS system?

Am glad you got the support you needed.

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XenoBitch · 24/12/2021 12:03

@Mreggsworth

I don't get playing the victim for being "othered" for being unvaccinated. Vaccination status isnt a protected characteristic. And we can discuss our annoyance with peoples choices if they have a direct negative effect on the rest of us.

Fyi no I dont believe unvaccinated people dont deserve medical treatment, I don't believe they are not good people, I wouldn't cut off friends for their vaccination status. I do believe however they made a flawed decision, and that's not discrimination or hate speech saying that.

I assume you are fully vaccinated... so not had vitriol aimed at you. You have not been told you have blood on your hands, that you are killing cancer patients, been accused of bed blocking, told you are thick, selfish, that you need to grow up, that you should do people a favour and die at home (that one came from a nurse!), that you should be denied hospital treatment, or should be made to pay for it. There are so many examples of all this all over this board.

I have had people PM me saying the comments on this board are making them suicidal. They are not anti-vaxxers... just people with severe anxiety about the vaccine.

oftenbaffled · 24/12/2021 12:05

@XenoBitch

Out of interest

Why on earth do so very many people even know your vaccination status?

EnidSpyton · 24/12/2021 12:07

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@EnidSpyton

I'm sorry if you find it sanctimonious to try and encourage people to be nice to each other. How sad.

It is sanctimonious to pretend to encourage niceties whilst simultaneously continuously being rude, patronising and dismissive of other people. I might not always be able to read the subtleties in the written word, but your intentions are glaringly obvious, and hypocritical.[/quote]
I don't think it's rude to point out that you did have an agenda with posting this thread. Just because you don't want to agree with me, it doesn't mean I'm being rude. Neither is it patronising to point that out.

You can call me all the names you like. I really don't care what you think of me.

It's perfectly possible to call people out while also calling for kindness. I understand that from your perspective, this post may well have been well meant. I understand that perhaps you're fearful of coronavirus and how unvaccinated people may become very ill. I can understand all of that while not agreeing with you that this thread doesn't have an agenda and can understand all of that while not agreeing that this thread isn't divisive.

My intentions are obvious, yes. I've already said what they are. I'm nothing if not transparent.

XenoBitch · 24/12/2021 12:10

[quote oftenbaffled]@XenoBitch

Out of interest

Why on earth do so very many people even know your vaccination status?[/quote]
Hardly anyone in real life does. But on MN, it is something that gets discussed, and I do join in with those conversations.

oftenbaffled · 24/12/2021 12:14

May I ask why you become involved in the discussions? What is your motivation?

These are genuine questions

I can’t understand why people who are vaccinated and angry about those that are not wanting to express that anger
It I can’t understand what would be your motivation to discussing the issue. To explain why you think it’s right not to get the vaccination?

oftenbaffled · 24/12/2021 12:15

I meant I CAN understand why those vaccinated…..

JanisMoplin · 24/12/2021 12:17

Xeno has a phobia. I assume needle phobics are probably a very small part of the population, so not crucial for public health. We would be wiser to focus on people who can get the vax, but haven't because they perhaps thought they did not need to, like most of the people in Liverpool's ICU's.

XenoBitch · 24/12/2021 12:20

@oftenbaffled

May I ask why you become involved in the discussions? What is your motivation?

These are genuine questions

I can’t understand why people who are vaccinated and angry about those that are not wanting to express that anger
It I can’t understand what would be your motivation to discussing the issue. To explain why you think it’s right not to get the vaccination?

It is like anything on MN... you join in conversations that are relevant to you.

oftenbaffled · 24/12/2021 12:21

Just seems like being a sucker for punishment!

lemmein · 24/12/2021 12:24

And no the scientists weren't lying, for God sake.

@herecomesthsun

They deliberately omitted information they knew at the time of the briefing - what else would you call it? Do you really believe that wasn't intentional? If the more recent data they had in their possession was more dire I doubt it would've been omitted.

I want to know when I listen to top scientists doing a briefing that I can be confident what they're saying is accurate with the information they have at that time, otherwise what's the point?

Original poster

DumplingsAndStew · 24/12/2021 12:28

@lemmein

I want to know when I listen to top scientists doing a briefing that I can be confident what they're saying is accurate with the information they have at that time, otherwise what's the point

Absolutely fair enough.

I want for the government to act on the information they have when it is presented, instead of days later.

OP posts:

nojudgementhere · 24/12/2021 12:31

@oftenbaffled

Just seems like being a sucker for punishment!

True! I think I comment because I don't like injustice. Some of the anger and hatred is based on facts and figures that are clearly incorrect which is unfair. I also jump in if I can see somebody getting affected or upset by the comments as I worry about what this amount of pressure and disapproval is doing to their mental state. I have no agenda with regards to trying to persuade anyone not to take the vaccine. I think they have proved hugely helpful in keeping elderly and vulnerable people out of hospital and would never try to discourage anyone from getting it if they felt it was in their best interests.

XenoBitch · 24/12/2021 12:34

@oftenbaffled

Just seems like being a sucker for punishment!

I was about to comment, but @nojudgementhere pretty much said what I was going to.

lemmein · 24/12/2021 12:39

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@lemmein

I want to know when I listen to top scientists doing a briefing that I can be confident what they're saying is accurate with the information they have at that time, otherwise what's the point

Absolutely fair enough.

I want for the government to act on the information they have when it is presented, instead of days later.[/quote]
Well quite, though I suspect the majority know this government is packed with incompetent arseholes - I don't think that's disputed?

Whitty and Valance though have continuously said throughout the pandemic that they aren't in the business of politics - omitting information shows that's clearly untrue and plays straight into the ardent anti-vaxxers hands.

EnidSpyton · 24/12/2021 12:48

@nojudgementhere

True! I think I comment because I don't like injustice. Some of the anger and hatred is based on facts and figures that are clearly incorrect which is unfair. I also jump in if I can see somebody getting affected or upset by the comments as I worry about what this amount of pressure and disapproval is doing to their mental state. I have no agenda with regards to trying to persuade anyone not to take the vaccine. I think they have proved hugely helpful in keeping elderly and vulnerable people out of hospital and would never try to discourage anyone from getting it if they felt it was in their best interests.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Shaming and calling people names only entrenches them in their position further.

Hence why I don't like threads like this. They do no one any good. No one who hasn't had a vaccine for whatever reason is going to read a post where someone's calling them a stupid selfish idiot and think 'yep, they're right. I am all of those things. I need to get the vaccine' - are they?

So instead what they become is just nastiness directed at one group of society, where they're all tarred with the same very limited brush of names, with no attempt made to stop and think why they might feel that way and what we could do to help and support them.

herecomesthsun · 24/12/2021 13:51

@lemmein

And no the scientists weren't lying, for God sake.

@herecomesthsun

They deliberately omitted information they knew at the time of the briefing - what else would you call it? Do you really believe that wasn't intentional? If the more recent data they had in their possession was more dire I doubt it would've been omitted.

I want to know when I listen to top scientists doing a briefing that I can be confident what they're saying is accurate with the information they have at that time, otherwise what's the point?

The slides they used - if this is what I think you're referring to - were decided upon by the Government,

I wish you'd stop repeating this misinformation.

Chris Whitty has been the best person to listen to, throughout all of this.

lemmein · 24/12/2021 14:37

The slides they used - if this is what I think you're referring to - were decided upon by the Government,

@herecomesthsun

So Chris Whitty is just a government stooge with no professional autonomy at all? Well that makes me more confident - thanks

It's not misinformation - it happened.

herecomesthsun · 24/12/2021 14:43

@lemmein

The slides they used - if this is what I think you're referring to - were decided upon by the Government,

@herecomesthsun

So Chris Whitty is just a government stooge with no professional autonomy at all? Well that makes me more confident - thanks

It's not misinformation - it happened.

no, he isn't the Prime Minister.

The PM and his staff are in charge of the Press Conference.

I don't think CW said anything that was untrue and he has IMO a lot of integrity, but there is of course an element of steer from government going on, it's really naive to think it could be other wise.

CW does express his independent thinking in a thoughtful and measured way, and the Press does pick up on subtle differences.