Covid: Liverpool's intensive care wards full of young unvaccinated patients

[DumplingsAndStew]

Apologies if this has already been posted, I had a quick look down the thread list and didn't see any title that suggested it had

www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-12-22/covid-liverpools-intensive-care-wards-full-of-young-unvaccinated-patients

@oftenbaffled

If this person is so crippled by diagnosed anxiety that she never leaves her home, She would be eligible for an at home vaccine

Good luck with that. MIL is housebound due to disability - it takes 2 people and a hoist to get her on the loo. She had jab 2 early January 2020. Like many housebound she I still waiting for her booster despite her MP getting involved.

The Inarc stats have been consistent and clear in the link between weight (Overweight AND obesity) and clinical outcomes regarding Covid.
Being overweight and obese is a health issue. Failing to vaccinate is doubling down on a person's chances of severe illness.

Interesting link here that shows most in critical care are currently vaccinated.
www.statsjamie.co.uk/hospital/
Saw another link from him yesterday that showed only one under 40 with no pre-existing conditions died of Covd w/e 12 Dec.
twitter.com/statsjamie/status/1473920784208904200?s=20

Nobody is saying that the vaccination doesn't stop hospitilisations and deaths. You only need to look at the amount of elderly people who are now making a full recovery which is great.

I think what we're questioning is the apocalyptic, blame-ridden headlines that we're seeing in the press at the moment, because they're causing people to turn on anyone unvaccinated. The figures are inaccurately reported but are causing a toxic and divisive atmosphere which is unhelpful and unfair.

Thanks @lemmein for your posts by the way! They explained the whole press/government manipulation angle much better than I can.

@Hrpuffnstuff1

The Inarc stats have been consistent and clear in the link between weight (Overweight AND obesity) and clinical outcomes regarding Covid. Being overweight and obese is a health issue. Failing to vaccinate is doubling down on a person's chances of severe illness.

Nobody disagrees with that. What we disagree with is the claim that only obese people are at risk. And of course, even the slimmest unvaxxed people with Covid transmit it more than the vaxxed. ( more data on Omicron awaited). Why are we tiptoeing around this?

So yes, I agree that the messages are not getting through to many but I don’t think that is wholly the fault of the media/advisors. MNHQ could do better, for example, in moderating threads like these that are awash with misinformation.

I wish Mumsnet would go a step further @ChloeDecker and pull any threads that have been clearly been started to try and stir up hatred towards anyone unvaccinated. At the moment though, the problem would be that they'd have very little threads left.

[quote lemmein]All those blaming 'anti-vaxxers' for spreading misinformation - well, they're not the only ones are they? The head of the NHS was caught out lying out her arse - Whitty and the other fella were accused of purposely using out of date data to spark lockdown - and Dr Hilary Jones got a wrist slap for saying 90% of patients were unvaccinated, when the real number was 30%.

It's really not helping the 'get boosted' campaign is it?

Plus, unless you're cheerleading the vaccine you're labelled an anti-vaxxer. NOBODY wants to talk about the side-effects, nobody wants to talk about the vaxx deaths - surely even the ardent pro-vaxxer can see this is counter-productive? If you don't allow a discussion then people will fill in the blanks themselves - why is discussing the matter so abhorrent? People expect medicine to have side effects, some even fatal - why are we excusing the covid vax from such scrutiny?

I'm vaxxed, but can totally see where the 'anti-or reluctant-vaxxers' are coming from - the whole thing stinks! If you're asking a population to inject a substance into their arms you better be transparent and have respect for their questions or they'll simply tell you to fuck off!

The ONLY people responsible for protecting the NHS are the government. Don't strip it to the bones then blame others that it's 'on its knees!' - yes, it is, and was long before covid.

[[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amanda-pritchard-nhs-chief-lambasted-after-covid-admissions-claim-0w78wbj7t]]

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54831334]]

[[https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2021/12/08/lorraine-dr-hilary-jones-sparks-over-1000-ofcom-complaints-over-hospital-stats-15738736/amp/]][/quote]
There are covid minimising posts all over the media and all over this website. People talk all the time about "side effects" of the vaccines, often ones most likely not caused by the vaccine.

I agree, we're not protecting the NHS, we're protecting society really from the effects of mass infection and breakdown of services.

And no the scientists weren't lying, for God sake.

Again.... ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

But the same logic applies also in the current COVID-19 pandemic. Comparisons of the absolute numbers, as some headlines do, is making a mistake that’s known in statistics as a ‘base rate fallacy’: it ignores the fact that one group is much larger than the other

48% of the much smaller group of unvaccinated people means that, statistically, more unvaccinated people need ITU care than unvaccinated.

One particular very small study which is confined to household transmission and has subsequently been debunked is used incessantly to argue that the vaxxed and unvaxxed have the same viral load and transmit equally. There have been many subsequent studies. Focusing on transmission of a respiratory disease is not hatred of the unvaxxed. It is a simple fact. Just like getting people to get vaxxed for TB and do TB tests is a simple public health measure.

@AnotherOneWithNoGoodName

Again.... ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

But the same logic applies also in the current COVID-19 pandemic. Comparisons of the absolute numbers, as some headlines do, is making a mistake that’s known in statistics as a ‘base rate fallacy’: it ignores the fact that one group is much larger than the other

48% of the much smaller group of unvaccinated people means that, statistically, more unvaccinated people need ITU care than unvaccinated.

Yes, we know! We're not querying that. What we are querying are clearly inaccurate headlines like 'ICUs are swamped with the unvaccinated', 'Pandemic of the unvaccinated' or '97% of all hospitilisations are amongst the unvaccinated' which are clearly sensationalist bollocks!

There is no evidence that the OP started this thread to stir up hatred.

@Piggywaspushed

There is no evidence that the OP started this thread to stir up hatred.

Ok, so what do you think the purpose was then?!

First and crucial line of the article linked by the OP: Young, unvaccinated adults with no underlying health issues are among those fighting for their lives in intensive care after contracting Covid in the North West, it has been revealed.

I am struggling to see the hatred in this simple, basic fact. I guess the truth hurts.

@HotPenguin

Rubbish, the number of people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons is very small (as are the number who truly cannot wear masks but that's another story)

Vaccination has been widely available since the summer for everyone over 18 with walk in centres and 7 day a week appointment slots. If you miss your booked appointment it's easy to get another. My young people are all triple vaxxed and were double vaxxed by July

@Honeyhorse

If you need hospitalisation you will need lots of needles!

My tip is to call your gp and explain, they should be able to arrange an appointment either at your practice or locally with a practice nurse rather than mass clinic, wear headphones with something you enjoy and do not look at the needle - I didn't even feel it go in. By the way the nurses trump the drs, so gentle and they are used to nervous people

@JanisMoplin - These kind of threads do stir up hatred - you only need to look at some of earlier posts to see that. There's been several that are even worse over the last few days, along the lines of 'Should we deny hospital treatment to unvaccinated people?' They tend to 'other' anyone who is unvaccinated, treating them like second-class citizens, undeserving of tolerance or respect. We are all human-beings and the fact that we have different opinions does not mean we have to hate or be nasty to one another!

@hamstersarse

Local news said 86% unvaccinated in intensive care as young as 23. Large regional teaching hospital

@Piggywaspushed

There is no evidence that the OP started this thread to stir up hatred.

Quite But the same tired old accusations from the same tired old minimisers keep coming. At least HQ delete the out and out lies. The minimising and statistic manipulation is more subtle.

[quote nojudgementhere]@JanisMoplin - These kind of threads do stir up hatred - you only need to look at some of earlier posts to see that. There's been several that are even worse over the last few days, along the lines of 'Should we deny hospital treatment to unvaccinated people?' They tend to 'other' anyone who is unvaccinated, treating them like second-class citizens, undeserving of tolerance or respect. We are all human-beings and the fact that we have different opinions does not mean we have to hate or be nasty to one another![/quote]
And the thread was quite rightly deleted.
As are the "let the elderly die so we can get on with our lives" posts.
As well you know.

No, we should not deny hospital treatment to the unvaxxed, or to anyone. The OP has not once suggested that and if you feel this factual thread stirs up hatred, report it to MN. Saying the unvaxxed are more likely to need treatment is not othering.

Your username always makes me laugh btw.
@nojudgementhere

@PAFMO - If you have a problem with the statistics I've given then please feel free to let everyone know. I did not come up with the numbers myself, as it probably wouldn't be safe to let me loose on a calculator, but it looks like a legitimate source! It's all very well to make vague accusations about minimising and manipulation. If this is what you really think I've done then prove it.

@PAFMO

Your username always makes me laugh btw. *@nojudgementhere*

Have you never heard of irony @PAFMO?! Anyway, I'm off to do some fun Christmas stuff now. Try not to let your blood pressure get too high.

I’m struggling with the constant ‘the vaxxed spread it less’ mantra.

Omicron seems to be doing ok in 95% vaxxed New South Wales, Australia at the moment.

Rubbish, the number of people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons is very small (as are the number who truly cannot wear masks but that's another story)

How many people is it out of curiosity? Because we also don't have a lot of intensive care beds/staff & the shortage was a problem before covid.

I don't get playing the victim for being "othered" for being unvaccinated. Vaccination status isnt a protected characteristic. And we can discuss our annoyance with peoples choices if they have a direct negative effect on the rest of us.

Fyi no I dont believe unvaccinated people dont deserve medical treatment, I don't believe they are not good people, I wouldn't cut off friends for their vaccination status. I do believe however they made a flawed decision, and that's not discrimination or hate speech saying that.