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Covid: Liverpool's intensive care wards full of young unvaccinated patients

351 replies

DumplingsAndStew · 23/12/2021 15:43

Apologies if this has already been posted, I had a quick look down the thread list and didn't see any title that suggested it had

www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-12-22/covid-liverpools-intensive-care-wards-full-of-young-unvaccinated-patients

OP posts:
DumplingsAndStew · 24/12/2021 09:23

@Piggywaspushed

There is no evidence that the OP started this thread to stir up hatred.
Thank you.
OP posts:
DumplingsAndStew · 24/12/2021 09:26

[quote nojudgementhere]@JanisMoplin - These kind of threads do stir up hatred - you only need to look at some of earlier posts to see that. There's been several that are even worse over the last few days, along the lines of 'Should we deny hospital treatment to unvaccinated people?' They tend to 'other' anyone who is unvaccinated, treating them like second-class citizens, undeserving of tolerance or respect. We are all human-beings and the fact that we have different opinions does not mean we have to hate or be nasty to one another![/quote]
The threads don't stir up hatred, some of the people do.

Does that mean no-one should share anything due to a small number of people who are insistent on arguing regardless of the topic, statistic, fact, etc.

If you find the thread hateful, there's lots of others to read instead.

OP posts:
dundydee · 24/12/2021 09:34

I think the unvaccinated issue is really complicated. Obviously there are the group that think it's Bill Gates or whatever but a lot of young people have had the narrative that covid is not dangerous to them & age was the priority for the vaccine, the whole protect your granny campaign. Then you have low uptake in certain minorities because of racism & mistrust.

Plus a large number of NHS staff are still unvaccinated.

sleepwouldbenice · 24/12/2021 09:34

@MummyPop00

I’m struggling with the constant ‘the vaxxed spread it less’ mantra.

Omicron seems to be doing ok in 95% vaxxed New South Wales, Australia at the moment.

If your struggling then look at the studies coming out for what we know so far and reduction in likelihood of catching it if boosted

Unless you believe the push for boosters is about control in which case don't bother

Whammyyammy · 24/12/2021 09:36

@Piggywaspushed

There is no evidence that the OP started this thread to stir up hatred.
I agree that I don't think the op started this thread in order to stir up hatred, it's already here. Covid has bought out such divides in us all. Be it vaccines, masks, furlough, key workers, lockdown lovers, people going on holidays.......

People just need to live their own lives how they choose and not stick their break into others lives.

dundydee · 24/12/2021 09:37

Covid has bought out such divides in us all. Be it vaccines, masks, furlough, key workers, lockdown lovers, people going on holidays......

I agree

MarshaBradyo · 24/12/2021 09:38

I think the greater problem is what do you say to change people minds because I don’t think the video or (posts on here) will

Is there anything that would work? Even if unvaccinated what would you say to someone high risk if you cared about their outcome

If no messaging works, then what next

MarshaBradyo · 24/12/2021 09:38

People’s

HotPenguin · 24/12/2021 10:20

@gogohm very rude of you to describe my comment as rubbish - just because you found it easy to get jabbed that doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. There was a walk-in in a nearby town but it was only open for a week, and my DS had covid at that time, so I couldn't go. People were queueing for 3 hours to get in. Someone I know went to another town, queued for 2 hours in the cold and then they closed the centre before they got in. There was another one 45 mins away but they switched it to vulnerable people only so I couldn't go there either. I've finally got vaccinated but it took a lot of effort on my part and I know others who've tried and not been able to because for example they can't take three hours out of their working day to queue, or they don't have a car.

the80sweregreat · 24/12/2021 10:26

It does make me wonder why so many NHS workers are refusing the vaccine, I wonder if it is just younger people working for them that are not worried ( for whatever reason ) or if it's across the board ?

JohnSmithDrive · 24/12/2021 10:27

I know someone who dropped all his plans last weekend because he's been volunteering in a vaccination centre and they were "called to action" but they were very quiet.

I'm getting daily texts from my GP telling me where and when I can have booster, although I've already had it.

There were big queues at the walk in centres when they first widened the criteria for boosters, but only for a couple of days, since then it's been very quick.

EnidSpyton · 24/12/2021 10:50

Of course this thread is here to stir up hatred and division. Why post it otherwise? What is its purpose other than to get people to come together and agree that unvaccinated people are a scourge on society and deserve to die in a gutter?

I have no agenda on this thread other than to try and get people to stop and think for a minute about why they think what they do and where those thoughts are coming from. But it seems not that many people on mumsnet are actually able to think particularly critically and have been so manipulated by the fear-mongering in the media that they now genuinely believe it's perfectly justified to have what are essentially eugenicist beliefs.

Everyone has the right to make whatever choices they want to make about their own bodies. And for people who say 'but their SELFISH choices affect me' - EVERYONE's choices affect everyone else, all the time. This is not a unique situation on that front.

Most of the people in A&E on a Friday and Saturday night are there because of alcohol or drug abuse, taking up the time and space in A&E that could be used for people with other non self inflicted health conditions.

The NHS' biggest expenditure every year is on diabetes care. The most common type of diabetes is caused by obesity. Not to mention cardiac disease, lung cancer - the majority caused by unhealthy life choices.

What about all the people who have car accidents, who are injured doing DIY, or doing sports? Should they not be treated, because they brought their injuries on themselves?

If we start going down this route of selfishness and who is deserving, where does it end? I've never smoked a day in my life, I barely drink, I'm a vegetarian, I keep slim and healthy because I like to look after my health. If I develop a severe health condition, do I get to jump to the top of the queue for treatment over someone else who has smoked fifty a day their whole lives? Are we going to develop a tick list of criteria to decide on who is most worthy, with the most selfish and irresponsible denied access to healthcare altogether? Would you like to live in a society like that?

All of us make decisions about our lives and our bodies based on our experiences and our capacities. Some of us have lower intelligence than others. Some of us have lower levels of education than others. Some of us have experienced trauma or abuse that makes us frightened or hesitant of things other people aren't. Some of us have experienced trauma and abuse that makes us abuse ourselves and our bodies. Some of us are born into families that love us and help us to make good decisions, and some of us aren't. Some of us are easily influenced by what we are told, and others aren't. Some of us have been brought up to mistrust authorities because of historic injustice, some of us haven't.

We're all journeying in this world from different starting points and different perspectives. No one is choosing to not have the vaccine because they want to harm someone else. People who are choosing not to have the vaccine are choosing not to do so because of reasons that make sense to them, because of the experiences they have had.

Calling them stupid, calling them selfish, calling them all manner of names under the sun and advocating for them to be left to die if they become seriously ill, isn't going to change their mind. What just might is compassion, kindness and a willingness to try and understand where they're coming from.

But it seems compassion and kindness are sorely missing in society at the moment. Apparently all the pandemic has taught some people is to turn on one another. Which, as I keep saying, is exactly what the government wants us to do, because it absolves them of all blame and responsibility. It saddens me that so many people - many of them very left wing, supposedly liberal people - have allowed themselves to be so terrified by this virus that it has led them to treat other people as nothing but vectors of disease. It is so dehumanising and divisive.

pluggee · 24/12/2021 10:55

Yes I don't understand the don't treat the non vax, we treat murderers & peados for one!

DumplingsAndStew · 24/12/2021 11:04

@EnidSpyton

Of course this thread is here to stir up hatred and division. Why post it otherwise? What is its purpose other than to get people to come together and agree that unvaccinated people are a scourge on society and deserve to die in a gutter?

Because its a current news article, about a current situation, which I've posted in the relevant section.

If you believe it was posted with the intention of stirring up hatred, feel free to either report it, or move on.

I actually agree with much of your comments, but to suggest that I've posted this for some sort of agenda or hateful reason... well I'd suggest that your opinion on me, based on solely sharing a link to a news article, I would call that rather hateful itself.

OP posts:
nojudgementhere · 24/12/2021 11:16

@EnidSpyton

Of course this thread is here to stir up hatred and division. Why post it otherwise? What is its purpose other than to get people to come together and agree that unvaccinated people are a scourge on society and deserve to die in a gutter?

I have no agenda on this thread other than to try and get people to stop and think for a minute about why they think what they do and where those thoughts are coming from. But it seems not that many people on mumsnet are actually able to think particularly critically and have been so manipulated by the fear-mongering in the media that they now genuinely believe it's perfectly justified to have what are essentially eugenicist beliefs.

Everyone has the right to make whatever choices they want to make about their own bodies. And for people who say 'but their SELFISH choices affect me' - EVERYONE's choices affect everyone else, all the time. This is not a unique situation on that front.

Most of the people in A&E on a Friday and Saturday night are there because of alcohol or drug abuse, taking up the time and space in A&E that could be used for people with other non self inflicted health conditions.

The NHS' biggest expenditure every year is on diabetes care. The most common type of diabetes is caused by obesity. Not to mention cardiac disease, lung cancer - the majority caused by unhealthy life choices.

What about all the people who have car accidents, who are injured doing DIY, or doing sports? Should they not be treated, because they brought their injuries on themselves?

If we start going down this route of selfishness and who is deserving, where does it end? I've never smoked a day in my life, I barely drink, I'm a vegetarian, I keep slim and healthy because I like to look after my health. If I develop a severe health condition, do I get to jump to the top of the queue for treatment over someone else who has smoked fifty a day their whole lives? Are we going to develop a tick list of criteria to decide on who is most worthy, with the most selfish and irresponsible denied access to healthcare altogether? Would you like to live in a society like that?

All of us make decisions about our lives and our bodies based on our experiences and our capacities. Some of us have lower intelligence than others. Some of us have lower levels of education than others. Some of us have experienced trauma or abuse that makes us frightened or hesitant of things other people aren't. Some of us have experienced trauma and abuse that makes us abuse ourselves and our bodies. Some of us are born into families that love us and help us to make good decisions, and some of us aren't. Some of us are easily influenced by what we are told, and others aren't. Some of us have been brought up to mistrust authorities because of historic injustice, some of us haven't.

We're all journeying in this world from different starting points and different perspectives. No one is choosing to not have the vaccine because they want to harm someone else. People who are choosing not to have the vaccine are choosing not to do so because of reasons that make sense to them, because of the experiences they have had.

Calling them stupid, calling them selfish, calling them all manner of names under the sun and advocating for them to be left to die if they become seriously ill, isn't going to change their mind. What just might is compassion, kindness and a willingness to try and understand where they're coming from.

But it seems compassion and kindness are sorely missing in society at the moment. Apparently all the pandemic has taught some people is to turn on one another. Which, as I keep saying, is exactly what the government wants us to do, because it absolves them of all blame and responsibility. It saddens me that so many people - many of them very left wing, supposedly liberal people - have allowed themselves to be so terrified by this virus that it has led them to treat other people as nothing but vectors of disease. It is so dehumanising and divisive.

Great post. I also saw your other one on the thread about how people have been affected by the pandemic and it made me cry. It gives me hope that there are people like you in the world.
EnidSpyton · 24/12/2021 11:17

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@EnidSpyton

Of course this thread is here to stir up hatred and division. Why post it otherwise? What is its purpose other than to get people to come together and agree that unvaccinated people are a scourge on society and deserve to die in a gutter?

Because its a current news article, about a current situation, which I've posted in the relevant section.

If you believe it was posted with the intention of stirring up hatred, feel free to either report it, or move on.

I actually agree with much of your comments, but to suggest that I've posted this for some sort of agenda or hateful reason... well I'd suggest that your opinion on me, based on solely sharing a link to a news article, I would call that rather hateful itself.[/quote]
Of course you posted it with an agenda.

If you didn't have an agenda, you wouldn't have posted it.

You posted it here - what - innocently for informational purposes? Of course not. It's a discussion board. You posted it to generate discussion. About unvaccinated people clogging up ICUs.

DumplingsAndStew · 24/12/2021 11:21

@EnidSpyton

How dare you presume to know what my intention is or was? Who do you think you are?

If all comments are posted with an agenda, it's very clear to see what yours is.

OP posts:
EnidSpyton · 24/12/2021 11:22

@nojudgementhere

Thanks very much. That's so kind of you. Sending you love and light! x

Piggywaspushed · 24/12/2021 11:25

No one on this thread has said that the unvaccinated people deserve to die.Not one. In fact it was OP very early on that called out the fattism and the implications that they did deserve their fate for other reasons.

JanisMoplin · 24/12/2021 11:26

@DumplingsAndStew The rants about " being kind" are best ignored really. Most people on this thread realise the implications of this article. Public health isn't puppies and rainbows and being kind while ignoring the HCPs who have to spend Xmas intubating the unvaxxed. You didnt argue that they don't need treatment. That might have been unkind.

EnidSpyton · 24/12/2021 11:29

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@EnidSpyton

How dare you presume to know what my intention is or was? Who do you think you are?

If all comments are posted with an agenda, it's very clear to see what yours is.[/quote]
I'm someone who can read, infer and deduce. I'm someone who is deeply saddened by the nastiness and vitriol some people are showing towards others as we all try and navigate our way through this pandemic. Nastiness and vitriol that borders on eugenics.

My agenda is clear, absolutely. I don't hide it. It's to try and encourage people to treat each other with a little kindness and compassion, rather than hatred and divisiveness.

There's no need to become irate at me. Everyone has an agenda. Nothing is neutral. Your decision to post this article was not a neutral decision. If you don't like having to confront that reality, that's not my fault. It was your choice. I didn't make you post it.

oftenbaffled · 24/12/2021 11:32

I have no issue at all if the OP’s agenda was to generate discussion against those unvaccinated.

Too right.

The more said about it the better

Piggyinblankets · 24/12/2021 11:32

But the OP's agenda was not to suggest any of the things you say. If there was one, it was maybe to point out that even young people are susceptible ,especially when unvaccinated. Which is factually true.

I don't think she is the stirrer here, must be honest.

ivykaty44 · 24/12/2021 11:34

But it seems not that many people on mumsnet are actually able to think particularly critically and have been so manipulated by the fear-mongering in the media that they now genuinely believe it's perfectly justified to have what are essentially eugenicist beliefs

Perhaps look at your own thinking, its not very critical and when pointed out you ignore those pulling apart your thinking and move on coming across as sanctimonious as before

BogRollBOGOF · 24/12/2021 11:38

@MarshaBradyo

I think the greater problem is what do you say to change people minds because I don’t think the video or (posts on here) will

Is there anything that would work? Even if unvaccinated what would you say to someone high risk if you cared about their outcome

If no messaging works, then what next

My area did a lot of targeted community work in the spring on making vaccinations accessible, and addressing community based concerns. Pop-up clinics were set up at Friday prayers at the Islamic centre. People could talk about their concerns about vaccines being Halal and didn't have to find/ pay for transport to the large edge of town hub. It's not a total solution, but it made a difference and those neighbourhoods had better take up than comparable areas of neighbouring cities.

People listen better when they are listened to.
Sometimes they need space to change their starting position.
Constant badgering with a generic Get Vaccinated/ Get Boosted is often not helpful and with the case of concerns like needle phobias can exacerbate the resistance, be it concious or emotional.

I had generally stopped trying to cover my face by the time I had vaccine#1 in April, but as it was a busy venue with potentially vulnerable people there, I tried. Within a minute a volunteer marshalling the queue recognised my body language going into distress (head down, breathing rate increasing) and she fast tracked me through with a guide. They assumed it was needle fear, but my point is that they were excellent at recognising distress and minimising it escalating.
Vaccine #2 having some immunity, I wore a lanyard and was again fast tracked through (I struggle being around others in masks for various reasons including hearing impairment/ loss of non-verbal communication and birth trauma)
It's not a complete solution but if someone is finding extreme anxiety a hinderence to vaccination, and is getting to the point of appriaching the entrance of the centre, using a lanyard is an indicator of hidden difficulties and can result in assistance before the anxiety intensifies too far.