Covid: Liverpool's intensive care wards full of young unvaccinated patients

[DumplingsAndStew]

Apologies if this has already been posted, I had a quick look down the thread list and didn't see any title that suggested it had

www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-12-22/covid-liverpools-intensive-care-wards-full-of-young-unvaccinated-patients

@herecomesthsun well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think parroting misleading information because 'Boris said so' diminishes your professional credibility 🤷🏻‍♀️

1. He does not parrot misleading information. Stuff and nonsense

1. There is an element of subtle diplomacy required for that job and he does that well, while expressing his opinion pretty clearly.

@herecomesthsun

1. He does not parrot misleading information. Stuff and nonsense

1. There is an element of subtle diplomacy required for that job and he does that well, while expressing his opinion pretty clearly.

Wow ok. You've admitted yourself he is steered by the government. From your posts you seem to accept the data he used was knowingly out of date, and more 'positive' accurate models were omitted on the governments say so.

I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion, whilst loosely agreeing with the above, that he has not deliberately misled the public to support the governments narrative. Even the regulator criticised the data used.

You accuse me of misinformation whilst maintaining Whitty et al are the beacons of integrity - yet I'm just repeating what actually happened This is why 'anti-vaxxers' exist, because blatant misrepresentation is ignored and glossed over.

You may think none of this matters because it was a means to an end - if you think lockdown was justified then who cares how they get the public to support that. I don't agree though - sacrificing integrity and transparency to get results leads to the ICU beds being filled with the unvaccinated. It's important.

@CaliforniaDrumming

Anyway: The figures are wrong The doctors are lying because they are in league with the government The patients are fatties, or they have an underlying condition

I think that covers everything.

This is all well and good, unless you are a fatty (like me) or have underlying conditions (like my DD and DS) but hey, we only need to protect the perfect people don't we, I guess its survival of the fittest, Hitler would lave loved this virus.

But the way CaliforniaDrumming I know your post wasnt serious and you dont think that, but some genuinely do feel like people only matter if they resemble themselves! an "Im alright so thats all that matters"

Not read the whole thread but I do not see a problem with the scientists and experts telling people to be careful around older relatives and vulnerable people to be honest. Even a mild cold or fever can be , potentially , harmful or cause someone to end up in hospital if they have underlying health issues.
They are just being cautious and hoping that people can stay away from needing care

I talk with friends and colleagues in many countries around the world and that happens in most countries. ICUs are filled with people that didn't want or couldn't have the vaccine.

Remember some young people still haven't had the chance to have the vaccine. My DD got Covid just before the Nov opportunity for vacc (age 15) and now has to wait 3 months! In the meantime she could get Covid again and another 3 month delay. Never ending

@willthatbeall

Remember some young people still haven't had the chance to have the vaccine. My DD got Covid just before the Nov opportunity for vacc (age 15) and now has to wait 3 months! In the meantime she could get Covid again and another 3 month delay. Never ending

That's unfortunate. I hope she gets a chance to get it soon, if that's what she wants. Where do you live and why does she need to wait 3 months?

The guidelines for your people from the government is 12 weeks after Covid!! Most of her year group are thus part of "The Unvaccinated". I can guarantee she will end up with omicron as soon as schools reopen! And so another 12 weeks will start. Same situation for my 12 year old who had Covid on her 12th birthday!

I hope she isn't denied hospital treatment by the rationale of the ignorant on this thread.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine-for-children-aged-12-to-15/

[quote willthatbeall]The guidelines for your people from the government is 12 weeks after Covid!! Most of her year group are thus part of "The Unvaccinated". I can guarantee she will end up with omicron as soon as schools reopen! And so another 12 weeks will start. Same situation for my 12 year old who had Covid on her 12th birthday!

I hope she isn't denied hospital treatment by the rationale of the ignorant on this thread.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine-for-children-aged-12-to-15/[/quote]
12 weeks? I had no idea they had to wait so long, had assumed it was 28 days like adults. I hope she manages to avoid it until then.

Although I think those who have suggested no treatment for unvaccinated probably mean those not vaccinated out of choice - which wouldn't include those who aren't able to have the vaccine, like your daughter.

@CaliforniaDrumming

Anyway: The figures are wrong The doctors are lying because they are in league with the government The patients are fatties, or they have an underlying condition

I think that covers everything.

You forgot “maybe they were run over by a bus shortly after their asymptomatic positive pcr, and their ICU admission is totally unrelated to covid”, and “I definitely personally know thousands of people who died from the vaccine, it’s far riskier than covid itself”.

Please try your gp
Local vax centres are doing teens 28 days after covid - ds 15 had hers last week 32 days after covid no underlying issues

@hamstersarse you are right overall it is about 50/50 vaccinated and unvaccinated in ICU.
But the 48% unvaccinated come from 10% of the population. The 52% comes from 90%.
If you also examine the data the age profile of the unvaccinated is younger and less have severe comorbidities.
I also take exception to your claim that obesity is preventable.
Hell if I could take a pill or a shot to make my BMI 25 I would tomorrow. I have spent pretty muuch my whole adult life battling with my weight.
I was probably last a normal BMI 20 years ago
On occasions when my life was going OK I have come close getting down to a BMI of 29. But unfortunately when you are dealing with so much stress and shit in your life your can't just magic the weight away.
If it were that easy over 60% of the population would not be overweight or obese.
O and incidentally a BMI of 30 is not necessarily massively overweight. The difference CAB be as little as 2 stone. So an average BMI of 30 in ICU hardly suggests everyone in ICU unvaccinated or not as the data id similar for all 3 datasets is massively overweight.
I can work on fitness though and this is the way forward for me.

@Northsoutheastwest76

Yes, the unvaccinated are disproportionately represented in ICU, I agree, my only issue is with conflating the figures. People want others to be vaccinated, fine, but don’t use a lie to convince them.

On the weight thing, I do understand the struggle, and I’ve been wanging on for years about how horrrendous the general advice is around losing weight. The calorie model is seriously flawed and simplistic, and is generally why people can’t lose weight. However, I stand by saying obesity is 100% reversible, but will add, given the right advice

And sorry, a BMI over 30 is extremely overweight. It may seem quite normal these days, but it’s extremely unhealthy in ways far beyond covid.

Hell if I could take a pill or a shot to make my BMI 25 I would tomorrow

That was my original point, people just want a pill (or a jab) to sort everything out, reliant on drugs. The fact that younger vaccinated obese people are still making it to icu tells you the jab hasn’t ‘sorted’ covid out for them.

@lemmein

The PM makes policy. The Government decides whether we go into lockdown or not, the scientists and doctors just advise. The PM runs the Press Conference and they can decide things such as which slides get shown.

Chris Whitty is very careful not to go in and openly contradict the PM if he can avoid it, but if he is asked questions by journalists, the answers he gives are truthful and good advice. To the extent that the papers are full of it the next day.

The senior doctors really try their best not to cause this sort of problem for the Government news.sky.com/story/covid-19-dont-socialise-unless-necessary-to-help-slow-omicron-variant-spread-says-uk-health-chief-12483022

If there was open disagreement, I'd worry it would push the Government into appointing less able and appropriate scientists who would just be mouthpieces for Government policy (Gupta and Heneghan for example).

So it is in the national interest for there to be careful diplomacy around the health messaging.

And yes, of course the initial lockdown was warranted. Though it could have been shorter, and an earlier lockdown might have got us a better outcome, with less time locked down and fewer adverse effects therefore.

I agree, my only issue is with conflating the figures.

But the truth is, they are not conflating figures. It's a fact some hospitals coming up with figures like 80-90% of icu patients are unvaccinated. At the same time, there maybe some hospital that have 80-90 % of patients, or even 100% of patients are vaccinated too, depend on the location and vaccination rate. You can't say they are lying, just because national average is 49% are unvaccinated. It's not like that all hospital has 48/49 % unvaccinated, it's national average, you must know that, right?

@hamstersarse the vaccinated in ICU tend to be older.
See screen shot ICNAR data. The double vaccinated especially have a much older profile and more have serious co morbidities.

Screenshot might help

That was my original point, people just want a pill (or a jab) to sort everything out, reliant on drugs.The fact that younger vaccinated obese people are still making it to icu tells you the jab hasn’t ‘sorted’ covid out
@hamstersarse they aren't generally. Plus that wasn't what I was saying anyway. I was saying that if losing weight was simply taking a shot or drug than we wouldn't have 60% of the population overweight.
It is not about advice either. Most if us aren't stupid. We know what needs to very done but when you have severe challenges in your life it is very much easier said than done.

The scientists who have presented to us all during the briefings consider the damage to health through lockdowns as well as deaths from covid and have always said they did so it is a balance always.

🤦‍♀️ my ds has just had his 2nd jab, but he’s under 18 and even he delayed the first by a few weeks as he wasn’t sure & I couldn’t force him. So there’s no excuses for young adults.
@Honeyhorse - the jab is such a ‘nothing’ in terms of the needle/pain - i didn’t feel my first one at all. They will look after you at the vaccination centre if you say you’re nervous.
You may have some side effects, ds is a bit rough after jab 2 but nothing paracetamol isn’t helping with.

[quote Northsoutheastwest76]@hamstersarse the vaccinated in ICU tend to be older.
See screen shot ICNAR data. The double vaccinated especially have a much older profile and more have serious co morbidities.[/quote]
Yes, aged 49 for unvaccinated to 65 for two doses.

….and I do hope you are not insinuating that older people with comorbidities don’t matter as much…that is #1 on things you can’t say about covid,

If you have co morbidities (I include obesity) you’d be mad to not get the vaccine, but that risk should be allowed to be calculated at individual level E.g. for young slim people.

The common thing is still BMI in those numbers.

Some people can’t understand why others don’t get the vaccine (despite no risk from covid) , I can’t understand why anyone would still be obese

It is not about advice either. Most if us aren't stupid. We know what needs to very done but when you have severe challenges in your life it is very much easier said than done

I have sympathy but I also don’t think it’s insurmountable. You can lose weight, and although you say advice doesn’t matter, if you are following government advice, it’s actually very difficult to lose weight and keep it off. As the numbers show