Covid: Liverpool's intensive care wards full of young unvaccinated patients

[DumplingsAndStew]

Apologies if this has already been posted, I had a quick look down the thread list and didn't see any title that suggested it had

www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-12-22/covid-liverpools-intensive-care-wards-full-of-young-unvaccinated-patients

@Honeyhorse

I didn’t want to do the drop in clinic as it means queuing up. I wanted to book an appointment so I could have time to build up to it…but when I looked on the NHS website it said the nearest place to book was 15 miles away!

Maybe your nearest centre was full that day. Did you check again? In my area, if the nearest is full, they try to send you to the next one

Sorry to say but all the people I know who haven’t had a vaccine are thick as pig shit. Not one intelligent one out the lot.

St George's Tooting is mentioned as one of the hospitals that classes 'unvaccinated' as people who haven't had a booster so when the nurse specified unvaccinated I would imagine she was referring to people who've had 0, 1 or 2 jabs

No, it's apples and pears.

For the purpose of the survey you linked they were indeed counting in the way described. it is not however the methodology for all reports.

It is wrong to extrapolate that the methodology of one is the methodology of all.

The St Georges on-the-record was clear and different

[quote Wrongkindofovercoat]@nojudgementhere could it be that those who are unvaccinated end up being the ones needing the most care, so end up in ICU ? so those who are vaccinated and end up in hospital might just need some extra oxygen and steroids for a couple of days before being discharged ?[/quote]
I have no idea - I'm not a doctor! I'm just interested in who hospitals are now classing as 'unvaccinated' as it seems that some are now includng people with 1 and 2 jabs in their unvaccinated totals. Doing this would obviously skew the figures and make it look as though the people with no jabs at all were taking up a much larger amount of general hospital and ICU care than they really were.

@SquirmOfEels

St George's Tooting is mentioned as one of the hospitals that classes 'unvaccinated' as people who haven't had a booster so when the nurse specified unvaccinated I would imagine she was referring to people who've had 0, 1 or 2 jabs

No, it's apples and pears.

For the purpose of the survey you linked they were indeed counting in the way described. it is not however the methodology for all reports.

It is wrong to extrapolate that the methodology of one is the methodology of all.

The St Georges on-the-record was clear and different

OK, if you say so!

🙄

[quote EnidSpyton]@ivykaty44

Those of us with the ability to think critically do have an excellent idea of what's happening.

I'll explain it to you.

1. Over the past couple of decades, the government has failed to invest meaningfully in the NHS. At the beginning of the pandemic, we had one of the lowest % of hospital beds to population in the EU. That means we were massively on the back foot to start off with.

1. Over the past couple of decades, poor pay progression and poor working conditions have led to a huge number of staff vacancies within the NHS. In their wisdom the government also chose to end bursaries for nurses going into initial training a couple of years ago, which obviously led to a reduction in trainees. Staff shortages have been an issue for years. As such, before the pandemic even started, we didn't have enough doctors and nurses to cope with normal illness numbers, let alone a pandemic.

1. Many NHS vacancies were plugged by staff from the EU. But guess what? The Conservatives decided to have a Brexit referendum, and half of the country thought it would be a great idea to leave the EU, and with it, lose all of those wonderful people who had come here to plug our staffing gaps. An existing problem therefore only got progressively worse as the pandemic hit.

1. The care industry has also been chronically underfunded for years. As with the NHS, many vacancies were filled with EU staff. As explained above, Brexit meant many of those staff left. So now we have a huge care crisis, which has led to up to 10% of patients in hospitals being bed blockers - they are medically well but can't leave because no care package can be put in place for them. It is these people who are causing hospitals to be overcrowded. Not people with covid who didn't get a vaccine.

Steps 1-4 could all have been addressed by better government policy. Some of these issues could have meaningfully been alleviated since the pandemic started, if the government was run by competent people who could be arsed to get their act together and look out for the good of their country's citizens, rather than shagging around, backstabbing one another, and finding numerous inventive excuses for getting around the restrictions they themselves invented.

But they didn't. And because they know they didn't, and they don't want people blaming them for this mess, they've found a great way to dodge the blame (they're very good at this). They've blamed the whole shitshow on unvaccinated people. The media are helping them push this message. And a lot of people are very willing to lap it up, and have gathered their pile of stones and are busy throwing them.

People like you.[/quote]
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

@Flaxmeadow

These anti-vax bastards, allover social media right now, have blood on their hands and that is the truth

I've spent the last two weeks BEGGING my sisters, age 50s and 60s, to get the vaccine because people we know are dying in ICU now, and these online anti-vax cunts, with their nutjob anti- science horseshit still have a fucking hold on my family

Don't give a fuck anymore if i get banned, if one person reads this and gets jabbed, it was worth it

I promise you, nobody is going to get vaxxed as a result of this post

All those blaming 'anti-vaxxers' for spreading misinformation - well, they're not the only ones are they? The head of the NHS was caught out lying out her arse - Whitty and the other fella were accused of purposely using out of date data to spark lockdown - and Dr Hilary Jones got a wrist slap for saying 90% of patients were unvaccinated, when the real number was 30%.

It's really not helping the 'get boosted' campaign is it?

Plus, unless you're cheerleading the vaccine you're labelled an anti-vaxxer. NOBODY wants to talk about the side-effects, nobody wants to talk about the vaxx deaths - surely even the ardent pro-vaxxer can see this is counter-productive? If you don't allow a discussion then people will fill in the blanks themselves - why is discussing the matter so abhorrent? People expect medicine to have side effects, some even fatal - why are we excusing the covid vax from such scrutiny?

I'm vaxxed, but can totally see where the 'anti-or reluctant-vaxxers' are coming from - the whole thing stinks! If you're asking a population to inject a substance into their arms you better be transparent and have respect for their questions or they'll simply tell you to fuck off!

The ONLY people responsible for protecting the NHS are the government. Don't strip it to the bones then blame others that it's 'on its knees!' - yes, it is, and was long before covid.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amanda-pritchard-nhs-chief-lambasted-after-covid-admissions-claim-0w78wbj7t

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54831334

https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2021/12/08/lorraine-dr-hilary-jones-sparks-over-1000-ofcom-complaints-over-hospital-stats-15738736/amp/

@Honeyhorse

I’m 32 and unvaccinated because of a severe needle phobia, but trying my best to work up the courage to go after Christmas. I’m terrified of the jab and terrified of ending up in ICU.

I am really scared of needles (although not a phobia) and I have to say the vaccine was the least traumatic encounter with a needle I've ever had. It was over so quickly and it didn't hurt. I'm very sensitive to pain too because I have fibromyalgia. The nurse explained they always use the smallest needle for the covid jab that's why it doesn't hurt.

For those that asked for the link re BMI, this is the article I read yesterday.

theconversation.com/amp/severe-covid-in-young-people-can-mostly-be-explained-by-obesity-new-study-159072

My apologies, I got mixed up with the figures. It would seem that anyone with a BMI over 25 is at greater risk, but the optimum BMI for not getting seriously ill is 23, which is why I had that number in my head. And very low BMI (18.5 or under) is a risk factor too.

@BlueLines81

Yet the more up to date link that I posted upthread shows there's more analysed evidence of mood disorders such as depression being a higher risk factor than there is of a BMI between 25 and 30.

The head of the NHS was caught out lying out her arse
Not really, just another example of quotes taken out of context: what was actually written in the press release was The latest monthly figures show that in August, for example, diagnostic tests were up around a fifth and elective procedures up around a third compared to a year ago despite admitting 14 times more covid patients in hospital.” and subsequently in the press release, Professor Stephen Powis, NHS national medical director said: “There is no doubt the NHS is running hot, with the highest ever number of patients seen in A&E in September, 14-times as many covid patients in hospital compared to the same month last year which doesn’t say the month of November when this was placed in the press, which people assumed but was following on from the previous paragraph talking about August.

Whitty and the other fella were accused of purposely using out of date data to spark lockdown
But this accusation was made on people’s assumptions that the projection was going to happen which Whitty never said, rather than showing a worse case scenario if no measures at all were put in place as it was, due to Tier 2 and 3 measures already in place, the figure was turning out to be 1,000 or so and even Sir David Spiegelhalter, one of the most respected statisticians in the country said that the situation with Covid was sufficient to warrant "radical action" at the time

and Dr Hilary Jones got a wrist slap for saying 90% of patients were unvaccinated

Well, according to Full Facts who did the ‘wrist slapping’, they said he was presumably referring to 90% of those in ICU in north west london hospitals which was correct and had been reported in the news before the ICNARC report was out yet

Hope they recover well... I am not convinced everything is reported correctly though...

IIRC the 'Whitty using out of date charts' was explained by the fact they were using the charts and graphs that had been used when the decision had been made several days previously to take further restrictions.

I'd rather question why the decision is being made based on figures, but not implemented for several days after that.

@boogiebogie

Hope they recover well... I am not convinced everything is reported correctly though...

You can't use a 'statistic' for the whole of England (which has how many ICUs?) as a suggestion that an individual hospital or health board are lying about the patients they are seeing.

@BluebellsGreenbells

Local hospital is 75% unvaccinated

I understand those with needle phobia - perhaps you can speak to your doctors?

You have probably spent longer worrying about it than it takes to get it done.

My sister has a needle phobia and had some online counselling and is now double jabbed. I'd recommend it for anyone scared of needles.

[quote EnidSpyton]@ivykaty44

Those of us with the ability to think critically do have an excellent idea of what's happening.

I'll explain it to you.

1. Over the past couple of decades, the government has failed to invest meaningfully in the NHS. At the beginning of the pandemic, we had one of the lowest % of hospital beds to population in the EU. That means we were massively on the back foot to start off with.

1. Over the past couple of decades, poor pay progression and poor working conditions have led to a huge number of staff vacancies within the NHS. In their wisdom the government also chose to end bursaries for nurses going into initial training a couple of years ago, which obviously led to a reduction in trainees. Staff shortages have been an issue for years. As such, before the pandemic even started, we didn't have enough doctors and nurses to cope with normal illness numbers, let alone a pandemic.

1. Many NHS vacancies were plugged by staff from the EU. But guess what? The Conservatives decided to have a Brexit referendum, and half of the country thought it would be a great idea to leave the EU, and with it, lose all of those wonderful people who had come here to plug our staffing gaps. An existing problem therefore only got progressively worse as the pandemic hit.

1. The care industry has also been chronically underfunded for years. As with the NHS, many vacancies were filled with EU staff. As explained above, Brexit meant many of those staff left. So now we have a huge care crisis, which has led to up to 10% of patients in hospitals being bed blockers - they are medically well but can't leave because no care package can be put in place for them. It is these people who are causing hospitals to be overcrowded. Not people with covid who didn't get a vaccine.

Steps 1-4 could all have been addressed by better government policy. Some of these issues could have meaningfully been alleviated since the pandemic started, if the government was run by competent people who could be arsed to get their act together and look out for the good of their country's citizens, rather than shagging around, backstabbing one another, and finding numerous inventive excuses for getting around the restrictions they themselves invented.

But they didn't. And because they know they didn't, and they don't want people blaming them for this mess, they've found a great way to dodge the blame (they're very good at this). They've blamed the whole shitshow on unvaccinated people. The media are helping them push this message. And a lot of people are very willing to lap it up, and have gathered their pile of stones and are busy throwing them.

People like you.[/quote]
Although I agree the nhs is underfunded. I worked in it for long enough and it was my job to know
You are just using this to suit your narrative ( patronising though you are as well)
Other governments with better funded healthcare systems also want vaccination rates to increase and have taken much stronger measures to achieve this
Funny that

@ChloeDecker

The head of the NHS was caught out lying out her arse Not really, just another example of quotes taken out of context: what was actually written in the press release was The latest monthly figures show that in August, for example, diagnostic tests were up around a fifth and elective procedures up around a third compared to a year ago despite admitting 14 times more covid patients in hospital.” and subsequently in the press release, Professor Stephen Powis, NHS national medical director said: “There is no doubt the NHS is running hot, with the highest ever number of patients seen in A&E in September, 14-times as many covid patients in hospital compared to the same month last year which doesn’t say the month of November when this was placed in the press, which people assumed but was following on from the previous paragraph talking about August.

Whitty and the other fella were accused of purposely using out of date data to spark lockdown
But this accusation was made on people’s assumptions that the projection was going to happen which Whitty never said, rather than showing a worse case scenario if no measures at all were put in place as it was, due to Tier 2 and 3 measures already in place, the figure was turning out to be 1,000 or so and even Sir David Spiegelhalter, one of the most respected statisticians in the country said that the situation with Covid was sufficient to warrant "radical action" at the time

and Dr Hilary Jones got a wrist slap for saying 90% of patients were unvaccinated

Well, according to Full Facts who did the ‘wrist slapping’, they said he was presumably referring to 90% of those in ICU in north west london hospitals which was correct and had been reported in the news before the ICNARC report was out yet

But you're just proving my point? The sources I posted were from legitimate media sources - not some crank anti vax site. If the messages are misleading, either deliberately or accidentally, or purposely vague then that creates the very mistrust which causes people to reject the vaccine.

Most people don't have hours to trawl scientific papers (or even the ability to decipher them) - they get their information from 'light' media sources. These people are paid a shit load of money - there should be no room for 'assumptions' and no excuse for the lack of clarity. If they're misquoted, or assumptions are wrongly made then you get your arse back in a televised press conference and put it right - you do not let misinformation hang because it benefits your 'cause'.

With regards to Whitty and Valance, the situation at the time may well have warranted radical action - this doesn't change the fact that when they appeared on tv they knew they were presenting inaccurate data - how is that ever acceptable? Worse still, the data had been updated before the briefing but they still used the old model to present a much worse scenario than the new data suggested - how is that anything other than wilful deceit?

Regardless, people being reluctant to vaccinate is the messengers fault, not the individuals - the narrative that the unvaccinated are responsible for the collapse of the NHS, or causing 'deserving' people to die is both abhorrent and laughable. We are in this situation because the government has allowed it - every single year, for at least the last decade; and any trust has dissipated with every rule they broken and every lie they've told.

sleepwouldbenice You answered so politely everything I would have said.

Let’s see if they are able to answer why in countries with better funding, there are still not enough either staff or funding and for example Germany is isolating the unvaccinated to prevent stretching the health service, where they have banned the sale of fireworks to protect the health service.

18.12.2021: German health minister warns of massive omicron wave
Berlin/Hanover (dpa) - Germany is facing a massive fifth Corona wave with the new omicron variant, according to German Health Minister Karl Lauterbach. The omicron wave can be delayed but not prevented, Lauterbach said. Germany must prepare itself for a challenge that has never been seen before in this form, he said.
Due to the corona pandemic, a comprehensive ban on the sale of fireworks is again in force in Germany on New Year's Eve. The aim is to prevent accidents caused by the improper use of firecrackers and rockets and thus to spare the hospitals, which are already extremely burdened by Corona.

I would agree that our NHS has been underfunded for 10 years, nursing placements set by government woefully low. But you can’t have infinite staff and many are also getting sick due to omicron

The deflection and excuses on this thread. Jeez.

I don't think there is another country where vaccination and LFTs have been made so easy for most people. People in other countries would kill to have vaccination services come to their homes, services for phobics, and so on.

I agree in some ways that the communication has been poor. The whole public health angle has been so deeply neglected, and this has been framed as an issue for the fat and the old, and no one else. When it is an issue for everyone.

And as said above, countries with better health services are also finding it impossible to handle the unvaxxed.

The initial headline says,
'Not one of them has been vaccinated'.

It should also say,
'Not one of them is fit and healthy'.

You literally do not know that. It might be true but you don't know.

One early poster declared two people in the video to be obese; everyone agreed without checking and now we have moved on to declare them all unhealthy and/or obese. I could point out that I watched it and at least one does not look at all overweight but it's pointless.

The two uniting factors they all have is relative youth and an unvaccinated status.

@Hrpuffnstuff1

The initial headline says, 'Not one of them has been vaccinated'.

It should also say,
'Not one of them is fit and healthy'.

Is this just based on the video? Ie you think they look overweight so not these things

If you are correct, not sure how can be known for sure, people still aren’t making correct risk assessments based on that

But you're just proving my point? The sources I posted were from legitimate media sources - not some crank anti vax site

In my opinion, the problem isn’t the media reporting, the problem is many reader’s lack of basic critical thinking in failing to read beyond a short headline or first paragraph. Even a cursory read of each of those articles would have clearly shown the facts. I mean, the articles are not exactly long.

So yes, I agree that the messages are not getting through to many but I don’t think that is wholly the fault of the media/advisors. MNHQ could do better, for example, in moderating threads like these that are awash with misinformation.