Govt plans re unvaccinated feels like a change is afoot

[whenwillthemadnessend]

Anyone noticed the govt and news sources seem to be covering more and more stories regarding the unvaccinated (by choice)
I feel they might be ramping up support for restrictions for unvaccinated people.
It's feel very much like propaganda and warm up the masses.
Anyone agree or noticed this in the last 3/4 days?

I don't think covid passes can reasonably be described as 'crazy' given how many countries have implemented them for optional social activities.

Yes I agree @ilovesooty My family in Ireland, Spain think it’s strange that we’re not bringing in vax passports. We’re the unusual ones in Europe. I think if we had a Labour government we’d have them by now. To me it’s a no brainer to have vax passports for non-essential activities.

The government and scientists seem to have taken the decision to treat us all as though we are very small children who need to be corralled into doing what they want and if that takes fudging a few figures/telling a few mistruths then so be it. The problem is once I've been lied to/misled once I then find it very difficult to trust that person's word ever again. I would imagine there's a fair few other people who are having the same problem.
I am have the exact same problem. The concept certain governments are using is known as the Noble Lie:
When experts or agencies deliver information to the public that they consider possibly or definitively false to further a larger, often well-meaning agenda, they are telling what is called a noble lie. Although the teller’s intentions may be pure—for example, a feeling of urgency that behavioral change is needed among the lay public—the consequences can undermine not only those intentions but also public trust in experts and science
slate.com/technology/2021/07/noble-lies-covid-fauci-cdc-masks.amp
The article is about America but could equally apply to the UK and other countries.

Article showing that vax passports work to encourage behaviour change:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58722878

@BelleHathor Are you saying that Covid, the vaccines and fact that majority of people who fall seriously ill with Covid are unvaccinated... a lie?!

Good grief. Try telling that to all the public health experts who’ve dedicated their lives to safeguarding humanity... and all the families who’ve lost loved ones to Covid.

Absolute disgrace.

nojudge I am not querying the states in the Croydon article but it IS confusing s it refers to peopl in hospital with covid and then talkes about for or of covid. The two are very different. If a third of people have covid with no symptoms then in an area with lots of covid many people in hospital for something else may have covid but that might not be why they are in hospital.

I am however certainly not saying if I get covid (unvaccinated) I will have just as easy a time of it as the unvaccinated but am happy to take my changes, even unto death.

@Headingnorthwoste

Yes I agree *@ilovesooty* My family in Ireland, Spain think it’s strange that we’re not bringing in vax passports. We’re the unusual ones in Europe. I think if we had a Labour government we’d have them by now. To me it’s a no brainer to have vax passports for non-essential activities.

'No brainer' just about sums it up, true. Looking at other countries it is quite clear that vaccine passports have not stopped transmission as their rates are still shooting up regardless. Surely that is the whole point of them? If they don't work then wouldn't it be slightly foolish to bring them in over here? Maybe we should be 'following the science' instead and insisting on testing everyone?

The only thing they do is damage the economy (Plan B is costing about £18 billion) and coerce people into getting the vaccine against their will, which goes against everything our medical practitioners are meant to uphold. I think it's disgusting.

[quote Headingnorthwoste]Article showing that vax passports work to encourage behaviour change:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58722878[/quote]
Works to coerce people into the vaccine, people who would not be in danger of overwhelming health services.

@BelleHathor - Interesing article - thank you.

[quote Headingnorthwoste]**@BelleHathor Are you saying that Covid, the vaccines and fact that majority of people who fall seriously ill with Covid are unvaccinated... a lie?!

Good grief. Try telling that to all the public health experts who’ve dedicated their lives to safeguarding humanity... and all the families who’ve lost loved ones to Covid.

Absolute disgrace.[/quote]
@BelleHathor never said that. Have you read the article yet?

Interesting article on covid. Unfortunately it has a quote from the Tony Blair Institute:)

www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/covid-passes-they-cant-prevent-every-infection-do-make-events-safer passes.

[quote Headingnorthwoste]NSW government in Australia are considering charging unvaxxed patients for care. I heard it on bbc news earlier and missed the important details so apologies.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/dec/23/unethical-doctors-condemn-nsw-government-for-considering-charging-unvaccinated-patients-for-covid-care[/quote]
Just another scare tactic to make people do want they want.

@Headingnorthwoste

Yes I agree *@ilovesooty* My family in Ireland, Spain think it’s strange that we’re not bringing in vax passports. We’re the unusual ones in Europe. I think if we had a Labour government we’d have them by now. To me it’s a no brainer to have vax passports for non-essential activities.

What's your basis for thinking it's a 'no brainer'? What is the evidence that they work? Just because your family think they're a good idea doesn't necessarily make it so.

NSW “leaders” are now telling people to not get tested after 20 months of telling people to get tested!!!
Why? Because the system can’t get enough staff to keep up.
I get text messages from my work asking me to join the testing team in my home town.
They can get stuffed, I’m not doing their dirty work.

[quote XenoBitch]@browneyes77

That is huge. Well done [/quote]
Ah thank you!

I’ve had a major needle fear since I was a child after my Dr hurt me giving me my Rubella shot (bitch!) I’m 44 now so that’s 40 years I’ve had this phobia

So I really feel for those who have needle phobias like me. It’s such a paralysing fear. You want to get over it, but the fear stops you. It’s really hard to push past.

Glad I did it though as it really has helped my phobia. The Emla cream is a GODSEND!! Wish I’d known about it sooner!!! Really helps to comfort you going into having a jab. I highly recommend it to any of my fellow needle phobics!

[quote nojudgementhere]@BelleHathor - Interesing article - thank you.[/quote]
No problem at all @nojudgementhere. It gives an insight to the public messaging that has been used. Remember earlier in the pandemic when the messaging was masks would do very little to prevent spread and the public don't need them. That was likely a Noble lie, there was a global shortage of PPE and a decision was made to reserve what little that was available for frontline staff. The unintended consequence was that when masks were found to be useful a percentage of the population doesn't believe it as they were initially told masks don't work.

Before covid the nhs struggled every winter with the amount of flu cases you only have to Google some of the headlines of the years before covid and it was never a case of dividing the figures by who had the flu vaccine and who didn't . Flu has killed many people in previous years even those who were fit and healthy and alot who were not old but had underlying health issues . Figures can be manipulated in many ways to fit wit what point the government is wanting to get across. The government has had 2 years to increase capacity in the nhs to deal with another winter with covid and they haven't and in April the nhs will potentially loose thousands and thousands of staff who it was absolutely fine for them to work through this pandemic last year but now it's not unless they are vaccinated. This concerns me massively where will the government get these staff replacements from ?

In winter 2018 there were numerous headlines of A&E departments overwhelmed due to flu and other winter viruses yet it’s like people think this is new and exclusive to coronavirus.

@RubyViolet

This piece today saying that 10% of the population of the population remain unvaccinated. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/19/sajid-javid-hits-out-at-unvaccinated-for-taking-up-hospital-beds? CMP=fbgu&utmmedium=Social&utmsource=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0OFqk6Z3DAFGOAQyPop5f-bgKvh30TiBNEQX8FQZY-2lGNDwl5US2w#Echobox=1639940650 This is worse than l thought, the unvaccinated cohort are proportionately taking more beds than l realised.

Did you follow the link in the article to the data?

You can open up an Excel spreadsheet with the title "Adults admitted for Extra Corporeal Membrane Oxygenation for Severe Respiratory Failure following COVID infection" with the actual numbers in it.

Do you know who many unvaccinated people received ECMO in November 2021 according the the data?

It is 18. Eighteen

That would appear to be the total for the entire country.

So according to our health secretary we are in a crisis with our very society being damaged because of 18 very sick people.

Really??

Why isn't the number stated in the article?

There are lots of quotes with Sajid Javid telling us how "the unvaccinated" are damaging society but no actual numbers. Do you think the article would have the same impact if he was quoted saying "the 18 unvaccinated people receiving ECMO are a threat to our society"?

The highest figure in the spreadsheet is 43 unvaccinated people in August 2021. Society didn't go into meltdown then and the numbers are going down.

I'm more concerned about the damage the politicization of these numbers is doing to society to be frank.

I'd also like to know what early treatment is being given to people who end up in critical care before we start placing all the blame for damage to society on sick people. I would also like to know how the Americans are getting on with their investigations into the origins of the virus and if the extremely plausible suspicions that it is a leak from a lab doing gain of function research are correct. If we are going to froth about damage to society let's look at the entire picture eh?

Don't get too excited. Scotty's trying to get re-elected. You might want to read a reputable news source for more accurate and recent updates re Australia. Hint: Masks are back, QR codes are back, etc.

So that's not a recent speech? John Campbell is pretty reliable, but not beyond human mistakes, of course.

Oh, btw @Beachcomber, excellent post further upthread. I do think we are now entering an experimental phase where people are being given more boosters. We simply don't know what the outcome of that may be.

I would also like to know how the Americans are getting on with their investigations into the origins of the virus and if the extremely plausible suspicions that it is a leak from a lab doing gain of function research are correct.

You might be interested in the latest interview on microbe.tv where Prof Vincent Racaniello (Higgins prof of virology from Columbia Uni) interviews an evolutionary biologist, and they dig into a paper on the phlogeny of SARS-CoV-2. Neither are of the opinion it came from a lab, btw, Prof R doesn't think the lab leak hypothesis is supported by any evidence at all. I like to follow This Week in Virology (TWiV) on YouTube, it has some excellent analysis and interviewees.

I wish people on MN would stop decrying YouTube, there are some absolutely excellent people on there, you just have to learn how to filter out the rubbish!

@Beachcomber ECMO is the highest level of intensive intervention offered and only a small percentage of patients are suitable because it’s pretty brutal and many simply wouldn’t survive it. We don’t have many ECMO beds (I couldn’t find exact figures but it’s certainly double digits and only six locations in the country offer it).

18 patients on ECMO for the same reason is a high number in context and indicative of higher numbers at lower levels of intervention.

You can’t quote figures like that without context. Well you can but it’s ignoring a lot of relevant factors.

@Trixiefirecracker

The three Covid vaccines currently approved for use in the UK have already been shown to be safe and effective in clinical trials.

It’s normal that authorities continue to monitor the safety of these vaccines even after they have been approved. This monitoring happens with all vaccines, including those that have been in use for years, to detect any adverse effects. Just because studies into these vaccines are continuing, doesn’t mean anyone getting the vaccine in the nationwide roll-out is part of an experiment.

It’s normal that authorities continue to monitor the safety of these vaccines even after they have been approved.

I think it would be more accurate that we are part of the ongoing research.

Covid vaccines are authorized for use by the European Medical Agency under emergency status. This is exceptional. Describing it as normal is not accurate.

www.ema.europa.eu/en/glossary/conditional-marketing-authorisation

Conditional marketing authorisation
The approval of a medicine that addresses unmet medical needs of patients on the basis of less comprehensive data than normally required. The available data must indicate that the medicine’s benefits outweigh its risks and the applicant should be in a position to provide the comprehensive clinical data in the future.

for those weighing in about the Archbishop, he seems to have been misquoted - this was the tweet in question

www.thepoke.co.uk/2021/12/17/the-archbishop-of-canterbury-just-brutally-owned-laurence-fox-and-its-heaven-sent/

Archbishop of Canterbury
@JustinWelby
Love them both by getting boosted ❤️
Laurence Fox ✝️
@LozzaFox
Love your vaccinated neighbour, hate your unvaccinated neighbour as Jesus would have wanted.

@JustinWelby twitter.com/churchofengland/status/1471100230053642241