Govt plans re unvaccinated feels like a change is afoot

[whenwillthemadnessend]

Anyone noticed the govt and news sources seem to be covering more and more stories regarding the unvaccinated (by choice)
I feel they might be ramping up support for restrictions for unvaccinated people.
It's feel very much like propaganda and warm up the masses.
Anyone agree or noticed this in the last 3/4 days?

Love your vaccinated neighbour, hate your unvaccinated neighbour as Jesus would have wanted.

Brilliant reply by Welby!

This is how the Archbishop’s comment was presented on here yesterday:

DottyHarmer

@Flowerlane - even the Archbishop of Canterbury has said that people refusing the vaccination are immoral

Not commenting on your blatant misuse of figures then @beachcomber? I’m shocked….

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you quote data and information you obviously have no understanding of? Are you shameless and simply don’t care that you don’t understand the words that your using?

The Archbishop is entitled to his opinions just as Catholic Archbishops will often indicate their flock should vote against abortion. However as the C of E is our state religion he probably has a different duty and should keep out of it as it is such a political issue. Welby is a white old establishment man in the SE who used to work for an oil company and went to Eton and Oxford. I do not ho.ld that against anyone but it is pity it is always that kind of person who is telling us what to do. There are lots of people like I am who have chosen not to have the vaccination and that does not make us wicked killers with a special place in hell reserved for us.

Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's. Here the vaccination issue is a state not a church issue.

Proof ICUs filling up with the unvaccinated

www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-12-22/covid-liverpools-intensive-care-wards-full-of-young-unvaccinated-patients

How come reporters can go into hospitals where covid patients are, but family members aren't?

[quote Headingnorthwoste]Proof ICUs filling up with the unvaccinated

www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-12-22/covid-liverpools-intensive-care-wards-full-of-young-unvaccinated-patients[/quote]
It's been fact checked by Stats Jamie and the data doesn't match the headline. It's really irresponsible by the Mirror and Liverpool Council.
Twitter thread here:
twitter.com/statsjamie/status/1473920784208904200?s=20

Why would the NHS and council staff be lying? I can’t believe you’re claiming that they are lying about patients so poorly.

Unbelievable.

'Stats Jamie' didn't think you needed to count people with asthma and diabetes in his fact check, it seems 🤔

@Cornettoninja

Not commenting on your blatant misuse of figures then *@beachcomber*? I’m shocked….

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you quote data and information you obviously have no understanding of? Are you shameless and simply don’t care that you don’t understand the words that your using?

Um, I was at work actually so you know busy doing stuff that is more important than replying to your posts on MN. Especially the above one which is pretty rude

Let's reexamine what I posted.

A poster on this thread linked to a press article quoting the UK health secretary saying that unvaccinated people are damaging society.

Now I don't know about you but I think those are strong words. I also think that they are very divisive and I think they are very political.

Because I think this is such a strong (actually extreme) thing to say I read the article attentively and I clicked on the link to the data which was in the article.

I explained in my post that that was what I had done. I included the link to the article in question in my post. I also helpfully included the link from the article to the webpage the quoted data is on.

And I did that in order to be clear about the context.

It is not my fault that the data in the article was data about ECMO treatments. It is not my fault if that is the data that the health secretary is using to make strong statements about the state of society.

If the point of the article and the health secretary's statements were about numbers at lower levels of intervention than ECMO they should have linked to the data about that. And then I would have clicked on that link and discussed that data. But they didn't provide that data therefore I am discussing the data they did provide. Clear?

Why am I discussing that data?

Because what the journalist and the health secretary have done is make extremely strong statements about unvaccinated people / society / the health service in general and then used data about the highest level of intensive intervention offered to justify their words.

What I did was point that out. Clear?

I have a perfectly good understanding of the data, the information, and the words I am using. Which is why I am able to see that the article is propaganda. My comment is about how the article and the health secretary have blatantly misused figures. Clear?

My discussing the figures quoted by people in positions of authority is not a blatant misuse of figures.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

Propaganda is communication that is primarily used to influence an audience and further an agenda, which may not be objective and may be selectively presenting facts to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is being presented.

@Potatodrivers

How come reporters can go into hospitals where covid patients are, but family members aren't?

I assume they don't need to go in to get information.

@Beachcomber when you’re using figures to try and minimise a point about hospital capacity i.e stating only 18 people are on ECMO with the very heavy implication that’s a small figure that doesn’t matter then it is a problem.

It doesn’t matter what was linked in the article, that’s on you to comprehend if you’re going to use it to push a point about other people making policies misusing data.

“It’s not my fault” is hardly a good defence when your post was crowing over finding out figures you personally deemed insignificant were being utilised by government and health services to inform decision making. You’re clearly not stupid I’m not sure why you’d want me to think you are? It’s not hard to make sure that the info you’re using to make a point is the right info to make that point. A cursory Google would have told you that before you went off on one. 18 people on ECMO for the same reason is a significant indicator of a problem.

The only thing that’s clear to me is that you’re adapt at picking and choosing information to fit your bias and then repeating it as fact.

@LoveCherryTree

If you read the latest ONS data it states that the vaccinated are 4.5 times more likely to test positive for Omicron than the unvaccinated, if you are vaccinated you pass it on, if you are unvaccinated you pass it on, why do people think the unvaxxed are so dangerous?

*@LoveCherryTree*

Please could you link to this? I can't find it. Thanks

I have to be honest and say I can’t see 18 people on ECMO as indicative of a major health crisis.

Here is a link to weekly deaths caused by the flu and pneumonia - which are much much much higher than this figure.

We never enforced mass vaccinations against the flu so if (please god) omicron is a mild strain then how can we now justify it against covid?

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/influenzadeathsin20182019and2020

Isn’t that because there are more vaccinated people.

The link is on the pic

@Beachcomber - I was actually really interested to hear that it was only 18 beds as I had assumed it would be a much higher number. Although obviously really tragic for the families involved, I can't see that this alone would cause the imminent collapse of the NHS or divide society.

More clarity and context with these sort of figures would be so helpful, particularly if politicians and papers are going to use them to push an agenda.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Isn’t that because there are more vaccinated people.

Is that in response to my question of LoveCherryTree?

It might be that the number of vaccinated people with omicron is 4.5 times that of unvaccinated - I don't know - and that, if true, could be explained by there being more vaccinated people. But that's a different thing altogether from any one person's risk being 4.5 times greater.

Thank you - I've found it now.
It also says "Note that this is the probability of an infection being Omicron given a person is infected, so it doesn’t tell us how likely a person is to test positive in the first place. This means it doesn’t tell us that the vaccines are making things worse overall, only that they are making it much more likely that a vaccinated person is infected with Omicron than another variant"

Which doesn't quite tally with the headline.

@nonamehere

Thank you - I've found it now. It also says "Note that this is the probability of an infection being Omicron given a person is infected, so it doesn’t tell us how likely a person is to test positive in the first place. This means it doesn’t tell us that the vaccines are making things worse overall, only that they are making it much more likely that a vaccinated person is infected with Omicron than another variant"

Which doesn't quite tally with the headline.

Well, that article is from The Sceptic, run by that well known scientist and expert in public health, Toby Young.

Totally Anecdotally, chatting to nurse friend who works at Carlisle, they have only five cases of covid in ICU beds ( this was 3 days ago so may have altered) , none of which actually came in because of covid but for other reasons. They test everyone of course so it was picked up then.

Exactly!

[quote Cornettoninja]@Beachcomber when you’re using figures to try and minimise a point about hospital capacity i.e stating only 18 people are on ECMO with the very heavy implication that’s a small figure that doesn’t matter then it is a problem.

It doesn’t matter what was linked in the article, that’s on you to comprehend if you’re going to use it to push a point about other people making policies misusing data.

“It’s not my fault” is hardly a good defence when your post was crowing over finding out figures you personally deemed insignificant were being utilised by government and health services to inform decision making. You’re clearly not stupid I’m not sure why you’d want me to think you are? It’s not hard to make sure that the info you’re using to make a point is the right info to make that point. A cursory Google would have told you that before you went off on one. 18 people on ECMO for the same reason is a significant indicator of a problem.

The only thing that’s clear to me is that you’re adapt at picking and choosing information to fit your bias and then repeating it as fact.[/quote]
What on earth are you on about?

1. I did not use the word "only". This is a falsehood in your post.
2. I did not use the figures to minimize a point about hospital capacity. I looked at the provided data and made the point that it did not IMO justify the health secretary stating that unvaccinated people are damaging society.
3. It doesn’t matter what was linked in the article Of course it matters if it is being used to back up extreme statements from a figure of authority.
4. I made no comment as to the figures being insignificant. I commented that they did not IMO justify the extreme statements being made by the health secretary and being reported in the press.
5. your post was crowing over finding out figures I did not look for or "find" figures. I followed the link provided in the article.
6. I did not comment on policy or government decisions. My comment is about the health secretary's opinion that unvaccinated people are damaging society.
7. A cursory Google would have told you that before you went off on one Why would I go googling for other information rather than reading the information linked to in the article to back up the point being made in the article???
8. If you keep posting falsehoods about my posts, misrepresenting what I post and personally attacking me I will report you.

Feel free @beachcomber, that’s what the function is there for.

I don’t particularly feel the need to continue engaging with you, I think your doing enough on your own.

This looks like some cautiously positive news about the Omicron variant. It just popped up on my news feed.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/health-59769969.amp