Govt plans re unvaccinated feels like a change is afoot

[whenwillthemadnessend]

Anyone noticed the govt and news sources seem to be covering more and more stories regarding the unvaccinated (by choice)
I feel they might be ramping up support for restrictions for unvaccinated people.
It's feel very much like propaganda and warm up the masses.
Anyone agree or noticed this in the last 3/4 days?

I've recently returned from France and everyone entering a bar, restaurant or supermarket has to show their pass. Seems to work fine in Europe. Presumably unvaccinated people can have a workable pass by uploading regular tests or a medical exception. I don't know what will happen to the people that both refuse to vaccinate and refuse to test though. Online shopping for them I guess.

You can still pass it on if you’re vaccinated! You can also still catch it if vaccinated.
Are these new rules helping keep cases down in other European countries? Would be interesting to know.
More likely is that everyone should take an LFT before an event vaccinated or not…but how do you prove it?

@the80sweregreat well it already happens in other countries. So can’t see why the unvaccinated shouldn’t be banned from Tesco.

@the80sweregreat

I'm sure that big businesses such as Tesco etc will be ' exempt' from asking for these passports as they know that to check every single person going into their stores would be unworkable and they wouldn't want the expense of having to hire security to man it all either.

Yes but the staffing levels can't be sustained. I'm not Tesco but we have 6 off from yesterdays shift alone

It can spread to retail staff easily as we are sitting ducks dealing with the maskless and unvaccinated. I was forced to spend 30 mins with a family at the weekend sorting out their measurements and order. No masks. No idea if vaccinated

I don't see how this could be allowed. I know those with allergies to the vaccines would be exempt, but that also leaves a lot of people who are not 'Bill Gates is chipping me anti-vaxers' but feel they can't have the vaccine. Either needle phobias or severe reactions that have stopped them pursuing it after the first dose.

Of course, many MN are frothing at the mouth already, but can't see it happening in this country.

I'm severely Pro choice (With a hint of anti vax)
You get one jab - you still catch and pass on Covid
You get jab two - you still catch and pass on Covid
You get jab three - you still catch and pass on Covid
The product is faulty - Lets blame the people who aren't jabbed.

Plenty of other countries are doing this.

I think it’s coming in clubs, restaurants, bars etc, and theatres and cinemas. It would be relatively easy to control, just show covid vaccine status on the app on the way in, or a printed copy.

This makes sense to me. The speed at which Omicron spreads makes LFTs much less useful for this sort of thing. But all the evidence is pointing to the boosters in particularly preventing most people from getting sick enough to need hospital treatment which is what it’s all about really.

@Redleavesfalling289 and @Honeyhorse there has been help for the needle phobic for months. I know counsellors who have been redeployed to help those with needle phobia. It’s not our fault if people have not seemed help. I do have every sympathy, but you need to give it a try. If you can’t do it, NHS will give you an exemption.

It may well happen in other countries, but we have a government who are very pro big businesses and you can lay money on them not wanting people in their stores spending money because they choose not to have a vaccine plus the cost of security too. Those people will need training and wages and pensions, most of these big stores try to cut back on that.
You could argue it would increase home delivery , maybe this would persuade them, but I still feel it'll be opposed by a lot of the supermarket owners

Good, the state should make life as inconvenient as possible for those who choose not to have the vaccination.

@Elvinelf

You can still pass it on if you’re vaccinated! You can also still catch it if vaccinated. Are these new rules helping keep cases down in other European countries? Would be interesting to know. More likely is that everyone should take an LFT before an event vaccinated or not…but how do you prove it?

But it isn’t cases that are automatically the problem it’s hospitalisations and deaths. The former is an indicator of the latter and the issue currently is that we’re not entirely sure how omicron will affect that ratio.

If the vaccines hold up then happy days, we can revert to how we were before omicron hit, if not we have a problem because even the most hardened ‘we all have to die one day’ people seek help if they think they’re in mortal danger from illness or injury. Scared people don’t stoically die quietly.

Once you are vaccinated or have 'natural' immunity your ability to spread virus particles is severely reduced. The virus can barely replicate in you thanks to antibodies. Therefore how many are actually being exhaled for others to catch? Not many at all. I wish people would stop saying vaccinated people can transmit the virus just the same an non-immune people. It's simply not true.

@the80sweregreat I don’t agree. Supermarkets are highly motivated to keep their staff and customers safe. They will support a policy which will help bring Covid under control. Other countries in Europe are also capitalist with large supermarket chains eg Carrefour, Lidl.

@Honeyhorse

Where does that leave me? With a genuine needle phobia? I haven’t had any yet but am in the process of getting counselling to overcome this, which may be delayed due to more restrictions.

I feel really sad that this is something that may be considered

Me too @Honeyhorse. Not needle phobia, but anxiety and OCD. I've tried getting vaccinated, and couldn't. I do everything else, including weekly testing, avoiding crowds, high dose vitamin D and K2 etc. I'm starting to lose the will to live. I feel despair at this point. I don't know where to turn. It's just a dreadful time, and I don't know what I'll do if I'm ostracized further. There are many unvaccinated due to mental health issues, and I don't think it's recognised by society. Take care, and know you're not alone x

Isn't this going to be spectacularly difficult to implement?

To start with there are already debates about how long vaccine efficacy lasts, so boosters.... but how long do they last? So if you have an ever moveable feast regarding who counts as unvaccinated, people are going to be cycling in and out of vaccinated status indefinitely.

I looked up how many unvaccinated eligible people there are supposed to be, and best guess from a Guardian article is 6 million. Out of the total UK population of 68 million. I assume this is people who have had no vaccines at all.

People who have had Covid and are probably going to have some form of immunity from that probably make up some of this group.

This us all making less and less sense to me, however the drive on Mymsnet seems to be to paint anyone who is unvaccinated as an enemy of the state - arrogant, selfish, thick, and not forgetting far right conspiracy theorists. In actuality a good proportion are vaccine hesitant, not Covid deniers, and often for personal reasons that have undermined their faith in the system. And this isn't helped by the flagrant disregard for health regulations demonstrated by those imposing them.

It is an interesting experiment in psychology of the masses using the most emotive subject imaginable - how far will Joe public go to "protect" their fellow citizens (those deemed worthy) if it means ostracising a group who may also suffer, not necessarily from the virus, but by being penalised and impoverished. But that's their own fault right? For not making the right choices. And its "only" 6 million. Who might not actually get Covid, nor pass it on, nor end up hospitalised. But who might end up needing state support to survive, another stick to beat them with. Or should they be denied that?

What strange and interesting times we live in.

@WanderingFruitWonderer please talk to your Dr and get an exemption from the vaccine if you have tried and failed. You don’t want to get lumped in with anti vaxxers. Every sympathy here - but please seek help . If your GP is not helpful speak to Healthwatch

[quote Dollymantra]@the80sweregreat I don’t agree. Supermarkets are highly motivated to keep their staff and customers safe. They will support a policy which will help bring Covid under control. Other countries in Europe are also capitalist with large supermarket chains eg Carrefour, Lidl.[/quote]

The retail trust agree with that

So many retail staff have chronic illness and live with vulnerable people. Retail is perfect for disabled/Cev people ( well it was before covid!) and for those supporting family who can't work

Why are we putting these people at risk? Can we support a new shielding programme? No. Because we need the staff.

Nobody seems to bother sanitising hands these days either, I noticed this over the weekend observing those entering store

I also disagree. The vast majority bhave been vaccinated and supermarkets will go with the majority. I wouldn't shop in a supermarket that had an express policy of allowing people in without masks and not checking passes, if that's what comes in, as they would be an absolute magnet for the type of people that I don not want to be standing next to, as well as the people with anxiety, hesitancy etc. There are plenty more to choose from. All the supermarkets here have a security guard.

The vaccines did prevent a percentage of transmission up to delta, the jury is still out on omnicron but it’s looking like if it does it’s not enough to outweigh the speed at which it transmits.

What it does do is prevent serious illness and hospitalisation to a high degree. The result is more comparable to every diabetic suddenly deciding one day that 20% of them are going to stop taking their insulin or following dietary restrictions. At that point it would probably be wise to introduce restrictions on buying sugary foods unless you can prove your diabetic status. (Massively over simplifying diabetes there but it’s to illustrate a point).

Plenty of stores do not have security guards.

The entire retail outlet of 25 different stores near me has a guard only in TK max

Glad to be proved wrong , but security can only do so much at a door and some of these stores are round the clock trading during the week too
It all adds to the costs.
I suppose that keying in and out might be a thing , but many anti vaxxers will get past this one way or another too !
I just think the logistics of it might be very difficult to maintain

@Dollymantra

Yep I’ve heard about lockdown for the unvaccinated and also NHS charging for their care should they become unwell.

I would definitely support

I sincerely hope everyone in support of that partakes of a vegetarian, non smoking, no alcohol, regular exercise life style. 🙄😂

That would be good, I respect very much their right not to get vaccinated if they don’t want to, but I have found that all the unvaccinated people I know (not many, so sample is not representative) think this is all a conspiracy so are not prepared to keep within the rules to lower risk of transmission, and at the end of the day, they may not care about dying, which is fine, but they are giving their choice into other vulnerable people that do, like passing the infection, taking hospital places and delaying operations for people who actually care about surviving not only Covid, but cancer and other life threatening conditions.

We'll all the supermarkets and most of the retail units here do. Presumably if/when these measure come in, there will be a program for retailers to put them back or in. Job creation to boot!

More realistically they will do spot checks in places like shopping centres etc. Or QR codes on the door. All very Draconian of course but it's the refuseniks that make it go that far - ironic really as they are the ones supposedly concerned about civil liberties. And it will inevitably get out of hand I think because of them. If we were at 90% vaccination (excluding genuine medical exception) none of this would be necessary.