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Christmas and the unvaccinated

210 replies

Whathefisgoingon · 20/12/2021 18:23

Has anyone changed their plans?

DP and I fully vaccinated including booster. Two year old obviously isn’t.

Plan was to go to the in laws, but there will be a couple of relatives there who are not vaccinated and live in London.

I have voiced my concerns to DP but he became defensive saying it’s no different to me popping to the ships. It’s obviously very different because when I go to the shops I’m wearing an FFP2 and not sitting indoors for hours on end with others.

Anyway, I genuinely don’t know what to do. The obvious solution is for all to do lateral flows, but apparently with Omicron they can change within hours so they’re not that reliable.

If these relatives weren’t going about life in London as normal, I may feel differently.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
Silverswirl · 21/12/2021 09:09

@JuergenSchwarzwald

I've said this before but there is a fundamental misunderstanding on MN (and elsewhere) that if you are unvaccinated you must have covid. That is not the case.

I think vaccination is a bit of a red herring. What you want to know is whether people have covid. So get them to do a test before you all meet up. If they are happy to do one to humour you.

OP has said that testing is also no good because that can change within hours with omicron. Bonkers.
justustwoandmoo · 21/12/2021 09:10

@Whathefisgoingon

Oh give it up.

It’s factual and it does make a difference.

This sort of thread really confuses me. The vaccination does NOT stop you from getting COVID. So you could go out shopping and get it and pass it to your two year old. What difference does it make?

It sounds like you would be happy to sit amongst them all if they were all vaccinated. It doesn't make sense!

Ohsofedupwiththis · 21/12/2021 09:11

[quote 3WildOnes]@Ohsofedupwiththis I didn’t forget that. I did mention in my previous post that neither the article and paper I posted looked at people who were triple vaccinated, I also said that this would presumably make a difference. I’m just not convinced that being vaccinated reduced your chance of passing on Covid as much as people seem to think it does. I can’t find any data on people being triple vaxxed and I assume we don’t have any yet? I think relying on people being vaccinated gives you a false sense of security.
This week I cancelled a trip to the cinema because it felt quite high risk. I am still meeting up with my un vaccinated friend for drinks but we will be sitting outside.[/quote]
You posted an article that doesn't accurately represent the vaccination status of most adults in the UK and then you have made an assumption and claimed that a booster doesn't stop as many breakthrough infections as we think it does!

I'm not really sure I get your point to be honest........

malificent7 · 21/12/2021 09:11

If you are fully vaccinated why worry?

BurningTheClocks · 21/12/2021 09:12

All the Young Persons I know are doing LFTs before they socialise.
The Millennial in the tweet posted is very like my children and their friends. So far, so good.

Whathefisgoingon · 21/12/2021 09:12

@Silverswirl This isn’t as “good” as it’s going to get though, is it.

My child is unlikely to suffer but SA saw an upwards trend of hospitalisations in under 5’s with Omicron and there is no vaccination approved for this age group yet.

“As good as it’s going to get” will be when we have safe and effective vaccines and treatments for all age groups, and that is when I will be able to rest easy in the knowledge that if we are one of the unlucky ones, at least there is medical help available for my child.

OP posts:
Derbee · 21/12/2021 09:13

@bumbleymummy

How many more times: The vaccine does not prevent infection, but it massively reduces the likelihood of severe illness and death.

Yep. So why is the OP worried? Her unvaccinated relatives are the ones more at risk.

Because her most important unvaccinated family member is her 2 year old child.
NMC2022 · 21/12/2021 09:13

@RunningInTheWind

If you’re worried about giving your friends covid - why don’t you wear your fancy mask when you meet them? That way YOU are protecting THEM right?

That IS why you wear a mask right? Right?

No, FFP2 masks protect the wearer
UniversalAunt · 21/12/2021 09:14

'the unvaccinated'!

I agree, very concerning way to refer to people. I'm eligible for a flu jab and have had one every year for about 20 years. People have never made such a fuss over whether people have had a flu jab or not, but the covid vaccine seems to be driving a divide in society which isn't helpful.’

@Soybean31. Same here, every year I took a flu jab as routine. I was thought odd to do so as I did not automatically qualify. My reasoning being it significantly reduced the the likelihood of catching flu & the severity. For most years this was so.

However inDecember 2018, & already flu jabbed, I caught the Influenza A that was not included in the seasonal flu jab. We & several people we knew in the UK & Canada were horribly horribly ill for at least 10 days & had post-viral fatigue for 12 weeks. One neighbour was so unwell they kept their front door open in case they needed to call an ambulance. No vaccine is perfect.

Time was, people used to go to work when they had flu symptoms & only stayed home when they were unable to get in, with no thought of staying away to avoid transmission. Remember the cold remedy ads about nothing getting in the way of the fella working in the office?

In the 1990s in the same week my grandmother died of flu, colleagues were coughing & spluttering about the office expecting brownie points. My mother, not one for complaining, had the HK flu in 1968 & was so ill that she thought she was going to die.

I am not playing down the impact of Covid, but every year the seasonal flu made a significant impact on the operational efficiency of the NHS, every year staff chose not to have the flu jab & every year there was a spike in the death rate due to flu.

Our awareness has been heightened & compounded by poor reporting, propaganda & panic to the point where fear overwhelms sound information & logic.

I queued outside my local pharmacy for a pre-booked booster. The pop-in queue ran the other way from the shop door. I & one other person in my queue were the only people out of all I could see who kept a social distance & anti-BBC’s our hands when we went into the shop. No-one else did. The focus is on vaccine compliance, & basic hygiene to reduce transmission seems to have gone out of the window.

As a previous poster pointed out, those not vaccinated are more likely to have Covid more seriously that those vaccinated.

Irrespective of Covid, demand for high dependency/ICU beds varies by the needs of patients. A serious road traffic accident can take up several ICU beds in an area for some time, as can any other event that puts someone’s survival at risk. Are we to judge those people on the grounds that they should not be in a situation where they were injured or became seriously ill?

DottyHarmer · 21/12/2021 09:14

@nojudgementhere - you have the most ironic name in the history of MN….

Calling me wicked? You have a very odd sense of right and wrong. By all means remain unvaccinated. It is your body, your choice, as you say. But that does not make you in need of “support” or “kindness”. That is the thinking of someone very self-centred indeed, to want validation from people on the internet. That is what is making me angry. The pride and believing somehow that you are beyond any reproach and people whose lives have been ruined or at least affected should be “kind” to you.

UniversalAunt · 21/12/2021 09:15

Anti-bac’d.

Anti-BBC?!

whatkatydid2013 · 21/12/2021 09:17

@Roselilly36

This is getting ridiculous now, why on earth would you not wish to see family members who have made a choice not to take the vaccine, that is their right, as was yours to take the vaccines.

Personally, I wouldn’t dream of asking relatives their vaccine status or asking them to take a test etc. We have lived alongside flu and viruses since the dawn if time, flu has killed so many over the years, but we weren’t terrified of leaving our homes, wearing masking, avoiding other humans etc. The fear surrounding COVID is out of control.

Two articles in the DM today really stood out to me, 200,000 NHS a staff have choose.not to take the vaccine, why would this be? Ask yourselves the question? www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10330361/JONATHAN-GORNALL-200-000-NHS-workers-not-Covid-jabs.html

The other was an article about Brian May www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10330687/Brian-begs-fans-Covid-vaccine-details-truly-horrible-battle-virus.html

A strong advocate of the vaccine, he has COVID despite being double jabbed & boosted, he caught COVID at an event where everyone was jabbed and tested beforehand, think about it?

Assuming the Daily Mail are looking at just NHS staff and not including social care staff then if 200,000 people haven’t had it that’s about 14%. Considering that virtually none of those staff are going to be over 70 and many of them will be young that’s above average take up. I would imagine those who haven’t taken it have chosen not to for similar reasons to anyone else who hasn’t taken it. Worries about infertility, concerns with underlying health conditions, assumption they’ll be fine if they catch the virus as young/fit. Why is them working for the NHS relevant? Lots of people who aren’t clinicians and have no more insight into safety/efficacy of vaccines than anyone else work for the NHS. If you told me a large % of doctors specialising in infectious disease or epidemiology wouldn’t have it I would consider that significant.

In other news a person in a high risk group has caught a virus after being vaccinated with a vaccine that is somewhere between around 60 & 95 percent effective depending on what variant & how long since last vaccine dose. They are feeling unwell but are not in hospital. What exactly should I be thinking about?

carrythecan · 21/12/2021 09:19

@Roselilly36

This is getting ridiculous now, why on earth would you not wish to see family members who have made a choice not to take the vaccine, that is their right, as was yours to take the vaccines.

Personally, I wouldn’t dream of asking relatives their vaccine status or asking them to take a test etc. We have lived alongside flu and viruses since the dawn if time, flu has killed so many over the years, but we weren’t terrified of leaving our homes, wearing masking, avoiding other humans etc. The fear surrounding COVID is out of control.

Two articles in the DM today really stood out to me, 200,000 NHS a staff have choose.not to take the vaccine, why would this be? Ask yourselves the question? www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10330361/JONATHAN-GORNALL-200-000-NHS-workers-not-Covid-jabs.html

The other was an article about Brian May www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10330687/Brian-begs-fans-Covid-vaccine-details-truly-horrible-battle-virus.html

A strong advocate of the vaccine, he has COVID despite being double jabbed & boosted, he caught COVID at an event where everyone was jabbed and tested beforehand, think about it?

I have been saying the same thing. Why are so many health professionals reluctant to get vaccinated and/or boosters? These are the people on the front line. My thoughts are that they know the risks of Covid and also weigh that up against the unknown risk of adverse effects of the vaccines. Many will have also built up natural immunity as they will have had Covid. Also, they are seeing the real world risks of daily mixing with lots of people. The result is that they are not convinced by the 'have the vaccine' argument.

I mix with lots of people daily in my job and have done so throughout the pandemic. I find my experience of how contagious and dangerous the virus is does not match the thoughts of people who have much less exposure to people.

CeibaTree · 21/12/2021 09:23

So if you are not actually worried for yourself, just for your elderly relatives (who presumably are happy for the unvaccinated to come) why are you thinking of not going OP?

bumbleymummy · 21/12/2021 09:27

[quote Whathefisgoingon]@Silverswirl This isn’t as “good” as it’s going to get though, is it.

My child is unlikely to suffer but SA saw an upwards trend of hospitalisations in under 5’s with Omicron and there is no vaccination approved for this age group yet.

“As good as it’s going to get” will be when we have safe and effective vaccines and treatments for all age groups, and that is when I will be able to rest easy in the knowledge that if we are one of the unlucky ones, at least there is medical help available for my child.[/quote]
incidental infections - identified when admitted for something else. This has been clarified several times. Latest data shows hospitalisations for omicron in SA were lower across all age groups. Its really positive news. Its a shame we all aren’t talking about it more.

ichundich · 21/12/2021 09:28

[quote 3WildOnes]@ichundich I think you were missing the point that as the vaccine doesn’t stop you getting Covid then these guests aren’t actually a risk to the OP, they are the ones who are at risk not the OP. The OP is triple vaxxed so should be fine.[/quote]
No, you are missing the point. With Omicron the efficacy of the vaccine drops to 70%. So if the guests have it, they are putting everyone at risk.

SergeiL · 21/12/2021 09:29

Honestly people. The Daily Mail as your source of choice?

bumbleymummy · 21/12/2021 09:32

@Derbee and? The 2yo is probably the lowest risk in the entire group - including the vaccinated elderly relatives. If she’s been going to childminders/nursery/travelling on public transport/hanging out with other children/parents who could have been infected, regardless of vaccine status, then it’s a bit silly to start worrying about this particular gathering.

scandikate · 21/12/2021 09:35

I'm visiting my mum on Christmas Day who is unvaccinated. Am a little worried about passing it on to her unwittingly (she's not!) but not worried about us.

3WildOnes · 21/12/2021 09:35

@Ohsofedupwiththis I couldn’t find any large data on breakthrough infections in triple vaxxed individuals. A few small studies that show there definitely are breakthrough infections in triple vaxxed, 6 Germans in South Africa, a few doctors in Israel etc, I don’t think we have enough data to say either way how much difference being triple vaxxed will make on transmitting Covid. We do know that there were 80% breakthrough infections in double vaxxed. There are still lots of youngish people, like myself, who are only double vaxxed. Will you be avoiding them too?

nojudgementhere · 21/12/2021 09:37

@DottyHarmer - Why are your posts always so personal and targeted directly at other people? It's really not very kind. I do talk about being supportive of others alot because I can see how if affects people's mental health having to listen to some of the more vitriolic and divisive rubbish on here. I hate the way our society is going at the moment and it does worry me that more and more threads are appearing that appear to be all about othering and excluding people who are unvaccinated. It doesn't mean that I don't have sympathy for people who are suffering from the effects of Covid. Of course I do. I have worked throughout the pandemic front-line and so have tried to do my bit to help. I worry massively about my teenagers and what kind of world they are growing up in. I'm going to step away for a bit now as I think I need a little less negativity and anger in my life!

bumbleymummy · 21/12/2021 09:37

Dotty, I’m pretty sure we’re supposed to ‘be kind’ to everyone not just people we agree with/approve of. You can say you disagree with someone’s choice without calling them names and being offensive.

Silverswirl · 21/12/2021 09:38

[quote Whathefisgoingon]@Silverswirl This isn’t as “good” as it’s going to get though, is it.

My child is unlikely to suffer but SA saw an upwards trend of hospitalisations in under 5’s with Omicron and there is no vaccination approved for this age group yet.

“As good as it’s going to get” will be when we have safe and effective vaccines and treatments for all age groups, and that is when I will be able to rest easy in the knowledge that if we are one of the unlucky ones, at least there is medical help available for my child.[/quote]
There is medical help for your child should they need it which is extremely unlikely from covid.
You are getting in a flap from reading worst case and inflammatory unsubstantiated stories in the press. The media is poison and it’s doing far more harm / presents more is a risk to your state of mind than you realise.
It is a good as it’s going to get for the foreseeable future. These vaccines are only partly effective and even when rolled out to kids , I don’t think you will rest easy as covid will still very much be here and many kids won’t get vaccinated at all. Are you going to still send your child to nursery / preschool when a percentage of the kids are unvaxxed? Because that will very much be the reality.
The vaccine also poses a tiny risk to your child.
Nothing is without risk. Walking your child down to the local park poses a risk.
It covid were to magically disappear tomorrow, being in a room with lots of people would still pose a risk.
My mum died in an accident at 40. Left me and 3 other young siblings behind. Literally here one hour and gone the next.
I can’t stress enough how precious every second of life is and how much you are wasting it by worrying about tiny risks when you are triple jabbed. I really hope these anxieties are not passing to others - fear is also contagious.
Any one of us could be ‘one of the unlucky ones’ at any time but a triple jabbed person and a 2 year old is extremely extremely unlikely to need medical assistance with covid. Surely you know this?

InMySpareTime · 21/12/2021 09:38

@Claudethecat I am actually fairly delightful, thank you for noticing 😊. I'm sorry that a tweet (not actually my tweet, just one I saw) caused offence, I'm in the midst of Christmas plans that had to change last minute.
I've been regularly LFTing and avoiding social contact to keep my older relatives safer, as have my siblings, while my parents have been going to pubs, karaoke, Christmas markets and using a lot of public transport.
Now my almost 100 year old DGM will spend Christmas alone as my parents are isolating with Covid and they're the only ones living close enough to visit her.

3WildOnes · 21/12/2021 09:39

@ichundich if you don’t think the vaccine is offering you significant protection from Covid and you are anxious about getting Covid then surely you would just avoid socialising, especially indoors? Aunt Mary who is triple vaxxed or younger cousin Susan who is double vaxxed could also pass on Covid to you.