AIBU to think people unwilling to get vaxxed but willing to accept treatment for covid = hypocritical as fuck?

[PurpleIndigoViolet]

While I disagree with people who are unwilling to be vaccinated due to concerns about the speed of vaccine development, ‘we’re all guinea pigs’ etc I can sort of under their point. What I am struggling to understand though is those people who refuse the vaccine for this reason but then are willing to accept hospital treatment for covid.

Surely if you think the vaccine is too rushed, long term effects aren’t fully known etc, then you’d apply this thinking to the treatments used for covid too? These treatments have only been used in relation to covid for less than two years so all these anti-vax arguments hold true for covid treatments as well. Yet it seems many anti vaxxers have no qualms about seeking hospital treatment for covid if they get seriously sick.

So - if you refused the vaccine on the grounds mentioned above, and you have received, or would be willing to receive, hospital treatment for covid, I’m curious how you justify this logically?

I'm nearly 70, so I'm fully vaccinated as the risk of dying from covid is much higher than the likelihood of vaccine injury. But one of my students just lost a 17-year-old friend, who died after receiving the vaccine. The chances of a 17 year old dying from covid are extremely slight

I think this attitude, towards human life, is utterly terrifying.

I'm happy to take ibuprofen but when I was prescribed an opioid after surgery, I didn't take it. I guess that makes me anti painkiller and I should refuse all forms of pain relief in the future and be left in pain

@traka

I think that they should be turned away

And left to die?

@Coyoacan

I'm nearly 70, so I'm fully vaccinated as the risk of dying from covid is much higher than the likelihood of vaccine injury. But one of my students just lost a 17-year-old friend, who died after receiving the vaccine. The chances of a 17 year old dying from covid are extremely slight

One of my nurses has a 17 year old son who is currently on ECMO, not expected to survive. So no, the risk of dying from covid may be low but it isn’t zero. the risk of dying from the vaccine is also very low.

I’d be interested to know if those who believe the unvaccinated should not receive treatment for covid also support the death penalty.

I think the suggestion of billing the unvaccinated for Covid ITU care is an excellent one. I imagine the majority of the population would support it. It still allows freedom of choice, but provides a consequence of that choice.

If Switzerland is doing it, then it must be feasible.

I’d just like to say that everyone should absolutely receive care for Covid, including the unvaccinated. Without question.

Do you mean the more severe cases of Covid or just the milder one? It’s just I haven’t been vaccinated OP for the exact reasons you mention, about people being scared of the possible long term side effects and the speed of lightning in which it was made. I got Covid in October last year and I didn’t need any treatment, I just self isolated and slept mainly.

I’m sure if I got it again and it was bad then god, I probably would get the vaccine if it was going to save my life, but I don’t want to be unwell for any considerable amount of time, which I know some people were floored for a whole month due to the vaccination, and so I feel there is more chance of me being unwell for a month than ever getting Covid seriously.

@Definitelymaybenot

I’d just like to say that everyone should absolutely receive care for Covid, including the unvaccinated. Without question.

Exactly! Plus the UK isn’t the type of kingdom, lol, that would deny us healthcare because we chose not to vaccinate, that’s what the US is trying to do!

@MrsBerthaRochester You do have responsibilities to society. You might not acknowledge it, but you do. Your rights come with responsibilities. You can’t do exactly as you please when it infringes on the rights of others in society.

@ScottishAngryBird sorry but I think you need to get over your fears and just get the bloody vaccine. Everyone has a civic duty. My children might not be able to go to school in January. They have a right to f2f education and people like you are denying them it. Sorry but that’s how I see it. It’s not a personal choice. You have to do it for society at large.

Good post @twinkletoesbluesky

@Definitelymaybenot nobody HAS to get the vaccine because some random on the internet says so. Jesus H Christ, some folk on this thread seriously need to give their head s wobble.

[quote Definitelymaybenot]@ScottishAngryBird sorry but I think you need to get over your fears and just get the bloody vaccine. Everyone has a civic duty. My children might not be able to go to school in January. They have a right to f2f education and people like you are denying them it. Sorry but that’s how I see it. It’s not a personal choice. You have to do it for society at large.[/quote]
I totally disagree, I have had mental health issues and health issues the past 18 months and I’ve been unwell for ages and I don’t want the vaccination to make me unwell.

If ‘people like me’ are denying your sons education, (there will be some teachers that don’t get the vaccination either) and if it’s really as simple as this then why aren’t the vaccinations mandatory?

You sound like my mother who also keeps telling me to “bloody get the vaccination” and I’ll tell you what I tell her every time she says it: No I don’t want it done because I don’t know the long term side effects, I’m not saying I won’t ever get the vaccination but not at this present time I’m not, how many jags, boosters and shots are you going to get? Do you believe all the mainstream media tell us? Do you truly believe that there are all these hospitals full of people with the new variant Omicron, or do you think it’s a bit to do with scaremongering us unvaccinated to get vaccinated?

On CNN one day last week, or the week before, then there was a scientist who worked and lived in South Africa, who said that Omicron was very mild and nothing like Covid, and then a female spokeswoman for the PM said that there had only been 1 hospitalisation with new variant and then 2 days later the mayor of London said it was in the thousands, then we have full lockdowns where people couldn’t visit their dying and/or elderly relatives at xmas due to the rules Boris put out and then we find out there was a party at number 10 without masks and social distancing, and it was horrible to see all the MPs having a great big laugh about the fact they didn’t distance or mask up, and then it was investigated by some top cop who said there was no reason to take the Downing Street party allegations any further, and then lo and behold it turns out that the investigating officer had also broke Covid rules, is it any wonder so many of us don’t believe what we are being told now from the PM? He was always a bumbling idiot but people are angry at the fact he put out the rules about so many households only being allowed and then he goes and has a party, we are meant to respect and look up to the PM but how can we trust him about what’s right and what’s wrong, he is willing to lockdown again and more restaurants and bars will be shut again in January, people’s livelihoods thrown down the drain for this new variant that’s not deadly, yet made out to be, all because he wants the unvaccinated to be scared into a jag. Did you also hear of this book on Amazon that was published in 2020 about Omicron, how can this be when it was apparently only discovered this year! I am struggling to believe anything that comes from No.10 and I do 100% believe that Omicron isn’t as bad as they are making out, and how many boosters are you all going to get, is this how life is going to be from now on, we are ‘allowed’ me a life from April to December and then for 4 months we shut down again, how long is this going to go on.

Of course they should be treated. Otherwise where do we draw the line? Stop treating the obese, smokers, drivers - they take risks and take up beds.

Also most of them have paid towards the NHS and have an equal right to use it.

Maybe my thread title wasn’t clear (though hopefully my first post was). I firmly believe everyone should be entitled to NHS care for covid, regardless of their vaccination status. NHS care should be universal and based on need, no exceptions.

My point was when those people who turn down the vaccine because “it’s untested/developed too quick/long term effects” don’t then turn down treatments for covid, using this same logic. I’m interested to understand the thought process behind this. What makes a treatment for a novel illness acceptable but not a vaccine for a novel illness?

And I think saying that ‘this treatment has been used against disease x in the past so I’m fine with it being used to treat covid’ is a bit of a cop out. If covid is that new and different that you distrust the vaccines made to tackle it (based on 200 years of vaccine use and research and development) then to accept existing treatments when applied to covid seems illogical.

But yeah, I guess logic isn’t the key thing for most people. I think the PP who said “No atheists in foxholes” probably has it right!

There is huge amount of cognitive dissonance that goes on in terms of vaccine refusal (excepting those who can't have it for medical reasons, including extreme vaccine phobia)

But it it up to government and public health services to focus resources on trying to get through to people, and to try and counteract the antivaccine/conspiracy theories, dodgy science, and general apathy.

Those people genuinely believe they are making the best choice for them at the time - and they run the risk of being faced with thr reality of that choice in the most horrible way possible. But no we should not refuse them treatment. We have (for now) a free at point of contact healthcare system - and that should continue to be the case.

I do think the argument about obesity and smoking and other things is a bit of a straw man argument however. A vaccine is just a simple jab, over in a matter of seconds - a crazily quick and easy way to stop/limit the progression of a virus.

Obesity/Nicotine addiction etc have much more complicated routes and reasons- if we had a simple vaccination to cure either I'm sure we'd have people queuing up in their millions.

@PurpleIndigoViolet

Maybe my thread title wasn’t clear (though hopefully my first post was). I firmly believe everyone should be entitled to NHS care for covid, regardless of their vaccination status. NHS care should be universal and based on need, no exceptions.

My point was when those people who turn down the vaccine because “it’s untested/developed too quick/long term effects” don’t then turn down treatments for covid, using this same logic. I’m interested to understand the thought process behind this. What makes a treatment for a novel illness acceptable but not a vaccine for a novel illness?

And I think saying that ‘this treatment has been used against disease x in the past so I’m fine with it being used to treat covid’ is a bit of a cop out. If covid is that new and different that you distrust the vaccines made to tackle it (based on 200 years of vaccine use and research and development) then to accept existing treatments when applied to covid seems illogical.

But yeah, I guess logic isn’t the key thing for most people. I think the PP who said “No atheists in foxholes” probably has it right!

Well the methodology used for the RNA vaccines is novel - yes it’s been used in labs but using it as it’s used in covid is novel.

By comparison, giving someone steroids or antivirals which have been used in humans over many decades is, for many, perceived as safer. Yes the vaccines have been given to many people but long term follow up data clearly cannot exist yet. The risk of issues is low of course. But I don’t find it difficult to understand why people are comfortable having dexamethosone that has been used since the Ark was built compared with an RNA vaccine.

I’ve asked this before of vaccine refusers - yes, I believe you should have hospital treatment regardless of your choice, but do you, as a quid pro quo, think it fair that you should then be barred from public places, ie cinemas, stadia, theatres, pubs, transport etc?

Why should they be barred? To reduce spread? Seeing as vaccinated people can also be infected, it would make more sense to require everyone to test if that was the aim.

@DottyHarmer

I’ve asked this before of vaccine refusers - yes, I believe you should have hospital treatment regardless of your choice, but do you, as a quid pro quo, think it fair that you should then be barred from public places, ie cinemas, stadia, theatres, pubs, transport etc?

Why is a quid pro quo required? It isn’t a hostage negotiation.

@DottyHarmer no, because it makes absolutely no sense. A far more sensible option would be to ensure everyone has tested negative before attending an event or public space. If the vaccine were 100% effective in preventing you from spreading the disease, fair enough - but it's not. Not even close.

I test myself regularly and observe all social distancing, hand washing and mask wearing rules - so I'm at very low risk of infecting others despite being unvaccinated. This hysteria (whipped up by the media) is, frankly, insane.

@PurpleIndigoViolet

I don’t think non vaccinated people should be denied treatment. I’m just curious why they’d accept treatment for covid but not accept to be vaccinated in the first place.

Because they might die of course