AIBU to think people unwilling to get vaxxed but willing to accept treatment for covid = hypocritical as fuck?

[PurpleIndigoViolet]

While I disagree with people who are unwilling to be vaccinated due to concerns about the speed of vaccine development, ‘we’re all guinea pigs’ etc I can sort of under their point. What I am struggling to understand though is those people who refuse the vaccine for this reason but then are willing to accept hospital treatment for covid.

Surely if you think the vaccine is too rushed, long term effects aren’t fully known etc, then you’d apply this thinking to the treatments used for covid too? These treatments have only been used in relation to covid for less than two years so all these anti-vax arguments hold true for covid treatments as well. Yet it seems many anti vaxxers have no qualms about seeking hospital treatment for covid if they get seriously sick.

So - if you refused the vaccine on the grounds mentioned above, and you have received, or would be willing to receive, hospital treatment for covid, I’m curious how you justify this logically?

@Changechangychange

You don’t read the information sheet or ask questions or do any research at all before taking them (assuming you are conscious and it’s not an emergency)? Really?

I think this is true for lots of people. I know patients who couldn’t tell me what the sternotomy scar on their chest was for (“was it a heart bypass?” “I’ve got no idea doc, isn’t it in my records?”). A heart bypass is major surgery, would involve weeks in hospital, and apparently they didn’t really know why they’d had it done 🤷‍♀️

Which demonstrates the variability of people!

Just as variation in vaccine uptake rates does.

I would hazard a guess that people who are worried about experimental vaccines/treatments base their decisions on what they perceive the risk of refusing to be. So for example, if Omicron was as transmissible as it is AND had the same mortality rate as, say, bubonic plague, they would have the vaccine. So I imagine in a situation where death really seems likely, they would accept an 'experimental' treatment.

I've been jabbed and wouldn't have considered refusing. But I can see why you'd refuse one and not the other if you weren't too worried about catching or getting seriously ill from Covid and, for whatever reason, you felt strongly about not wanting the vaccine.

The ones refusing the vaccines are doing it from a point of view of trust.
They’re new, there’s a whole bunch of recorded side effects, people have died and this is all very recent and public. There are multiple posts here discussing side effects. People genuinely fear them. I don’t think many people are refusing them for any other reason other than trust.

I think key to your point is that largely they're not getting new treatments for Covid, they're getting treatments for the symptoms Covid causes,not a cure, not new medicines.

Which supports their view of the vaccine being rushed and not entirely safe for population use.

Hypocritical? Yes. Entitled to treatment? Also yes.

We’re human. If you want to start that, where do we stop? Many of us make life choices that effect our health. Many of us also aren’t very smart

One has nothing to do with the other. Anti-vax doesn't mean covid conspiracy theorist, and not wanting a vaccine that has only been around a short while doesn't mean that you're happy to die from covid and shouldn't accept treatment.

@PurpleIndigoViolet

Some interesting points here. I think the risk/reward ratio mentioned - which means someone is more likely to seek treatment even though they rejected the vaccine for being too ‘novel’ makes sense.

It still seems to me a lot of anti-vaxxers are holding the vaccine to a much higher standard than they would for any other medical intervention, covid-related or otherwise.

And I would never say NHS treatment should be withheld from anti-vaxxers (or those who are obese, alcoholic, taking part in dangerous sports etc). That was never mentioned in my OP. I’m all for the underlying free treatment to all principles of the NHS.

The higher standard thing is relevant.

Most people are largely oblivious to the detail of drug development but during covid so much has been reported and discussed and dissected and, in lockdown, many had little else to do but absorb it - and so it has confused many and created anxieties (and some understand perfectly well and simply are making an informed choice) and it’s difficult to tackle those now. But that has been the case for many public health interventions historically and it’s far better to use the carrot than the stick to get good long term results.

Crossbow and vax darts. Job done.

@MollyQueenOfSocks

Also, I say this as a recovering alcoholic. My selfish actions shouldn't get me an ITU bed for liver failure over someone with Hepatitis.

Made my bed and I should lie in it and pay the price. Thankfully I got the help that was being offered and made an effort to get better.

At the risk of sounding patronising don’t be so hard on yourself. Alcoholism is a disease not a weakness. My dad was an alcoholic, he died as a result, but I always thought he deserved everything as much as a person who is wholesome and tee total

If they refused a simple jab that would significantly reduce the risks of being obese then arguably they shouldn't be treated further until they do.

There may not be a jab for it but people refuse to treat obesity constantly but still get medical care.

Should same apply to flu? I don’t have the flu jab, I have the option of paying a tenner to Boots for it but I don’t. Should I be revised treatment if I get flu?

So pleased none of you have any standing or decision making on behalf of the NHS

@Inthelivingyears

Interesting how there’s so many of these posts today 🤔

Of course there are posts about it.

Christmas is coming and another lockdown is looming, and some are still dragging their feet about getting vaccinated. People are upset, rightly so, and they are posting about it.

If you are needle phobic so haven’t had the vaccine, then get COVID, would you accept treatment if it had to be injected?

A heart bypass is major surgery, would involve weeks in hospital

I don't think that's true any more tbh. DH had a triple bypass 5 years ago, he was home after 4 days and from what I could tell that wasn't unusual.

Incidentally DD2 has a Masters in control of infectious diseases and her research (nothing to do with Covid at all) involved using mRNA sequencing. So while the Covid vaccine was the first time it was used in a human vaccine, it really isn't the 'big bad unknown' that some are claiming. RNA research is going on in labs all over the world and has been for years.

What is driving me to almost the point of insanity is that even though it's written clearly on the government website and on the safety data for the vaccines themselves, people still don't seem to get that being vaccinated does not stop you transmitting it, does not stop you getting it, and only MAY stop you from dying from it. So it's potentially a bit of a help to people having it who may have suffered hospitalisation, but not having the jab does not put others in danger. It is not therefore not "selfish" to make your own decision about it, as my husband has done due to the risk of allergic reaction, which he has had before.
We also seem to have forgotten that for most, this still is a mild illness, and most people in hospital with it already had something wrong with them. So not having the jab isn't a wildly stupid decision, in fact it may turn out to be a better one if natural immunity proves more longer lasting. And as far as taking treatment, some people prefer to wait to take treatment when they know they need it, some people prefer to try that treatment in advance. Why can't we just stay accepting of others decisions?
Finally from my soap box of despair - hospital admission data listing someone as With Covid, doesn't always mean Of Covid, (and one fact I have heard from a data scientist friend that may or may not be true is that people who have only just been vaccinated are listed as unvaccinated in the data as their vaccine hasn't kicked in yet!) But we do know that many people contract the bloody thing from the hospital, both vaccinated and unvaccinated people.
And now to bed 🤣

@EightWheelGirl

Crossbow and vax darts. Job done.

Wow really? Do you not believe bodily autonomy? Your comment is shocking!

@Berniebean

What is driving me to almost the point of insanity is that even though it's written clearly on the government website and on the safety data for the vaccines themselves, people still don't seem to get that being vaccinated does not stop you transmitting it, does not stop you getting it, and only MAY stop you from dying from it. So it's potentially a bit of a help to people having it who may have suffered hospitalisation, but not having the jab does not put others in danger. It is not therefore not "selfish" to make your own decision about it, as my husband has done due to the risk of allergic reaction, which he has had before. We also seem to have forgotten that for most, this still is a mild illness, and most people in hospital with it already had something wrong with them. So not having the jab isn't a wildly stupid decision, in fact it may turn out to be a better one if natural immunity proves more longer lasting. And as far as taking treatment, some people prefer to wait to take treatment when they know they need it, some people prefer to try that treatment in advance. Why can't we just stay accepting of others decisions? Finally from my soap box of despair - hospital admission data listing someone as With Covid, doesn't always mean Of Covid, (and one fact I have heard from a data scientist friend that may or may not be true is that people who have only just been vaccinated are listed as unvaccinated in the data as their vaccine hasn't kicked in yet!) But we do know that many people contract the bloody thing from the hospital, both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. And now to bed 🤣

Well said, 👏🏼

The folk frothing on here about anti vaxxers must be delighted with whats going on in some states of the usa where bodily autonomy is being systematically removed from women. No? Only applies to the nasty anti vaxxers? MY body MY choice. I do not make medical choices based on the greater good of others, thats just nonsense.
Go educate yourself on statistics. FACT the majority of folk died WITH covid are elderly or with undeying conditions.

@Berniebean

What is driving me to almost the point of insanity is that even though it's written clearly on the government website and on the safety data for the vaccines themselves, people still don't seem to get that being vaccinated does not stop you transmitting it, does not stop you getting it, and only MAY stop you from dying from it.

What drives me to insanity is that some people can't seem to understand the difference between:

"The vaccine doesn't stop all transmission" and "the vaccine doesn't stop transmission at all".

Anti-vaxxers seem incapable of differentiating between them!

@MrsBerthaRochester

MY body MY choice

I agree, but I also agree with "rights come with responsibilities" and "actions have consequences". Anti-vaxxers want to be treated by health care professionals and receive the necessary medicine when they need it in hospital, all whilst having stuck two-fingers up to the medical profession before they need it. They're like spoilt teenagers who never grew up and expect society to clear up after their mess.

FACT the majority of folk died WITH covid are elderly or with undeying conditions.

I don't dispute that, but it's missing the point... I'm well aware I'm at very low risk and am not concerned by the prospect of catching Covid personally... It doesn't mean that I can't recognise the way I which it has a devastating impact on others who are older or more clinically vulnerable than me.

Vaccines DONT stop you catching it or spreading it potentially. It says it on the tin Ffs!!
I have zero responsibility towards others. My priority is my kids and I would rather they live a normal life not pandering to the crap that we must keep old people alive at any cost .

At the risk of sounding patronising don’t be so hard on yourself. Alcoholism is a disease not a weakness. My dad was an alcoholic, he died as a result, but I always thought he deserved everything as much as a person who is wholesome and tee total

I agree...but unlike alcoholism, choosing not to be vaccinated isn't a disease or a addiction (with possible exception of needle phobia or such like), and those anti-vaxxers that draw an equivalence between the two in an attempt to justify their actions are shameful.

I think that they should be turned away

@MrsBerthaRochester

Vaccines DONT stop you catching it or spreading it potentially. It says it on the tin Ffs!! I have zero responsibility towards others. My priority is my kids and I would rather they live a normal life not pandering to the crap that we must keep old people alive at any cost .

You say you have no responsibilities to others, yet you still expect society to have responsibilities to you.... Thankfully most people grow up and last that stage when they got through high school.

I've had two vaccines but am unlikely to have more, so not an antivaxxer exactly. That said, I'd refuse some Covid treatments. I'd be terrified of anything invasive. There's no way I could tolerate being intubated while conscious, even if the alternative was dying. I don't have a needle phobia but I suspect anyone who is unvaccinated for that reason wouldn't just blithely accept injections if they needed them for other reasons, either. That isn't how a phobia works.

I don't think there's anything hypocritical about being willing to accept one form of medical treatment but not another, different one.