AIBU to think people unwilling to get vaxxed but willing to accept treatment for covid = hypocritical as fuck?

[PurpleIndigoViolet]

While I disagree with people who are unwilling to be vaccinated due to concerns about the speed of vaccine development, ‘we’re all guinea pigs’ etc I can sort of under their point. What I am struggling to understand though is those people who refuse the vaccine for this reason but then are willing to accept hospital treatment for covid.

Surely if you think the vaccine is too rushed, long term effects aren’t fully known etc, then you’d apply this thinking to the treatments used for covid too? These treatments have only been used in relation to covid for less than two years so all these anti-vax arguments hold true for covid treatments as well. Yet it seems many anti vaxxers have no qualms about seeking hospital treatment for covid if they get seriously sick.

So - if you refused the vaccine on the grounds mentioned above, and you have received, or would be willing to receive, hospital treatment for covid, I’m curious how you justify this logically?

@Changechangychange
20 November 2020 WHO made a conditional recommendation against the use of Remdesivir.

@Abigail12345654321 Remdesivir has been in clinical trials since 2009, initially found to be ineffective against Hep C. Then between 2013-19 it was trialled against Ebola, and again didn’t do much. Was not licensed in the UK, EU or US during that time, and was not in widespread clinical use anywhere until 2020 when it was approved for use in Covid 19. Still significantly less experience of using Remdesivir than there is in using any of the vaccines - hundreds of millions of doses of each vaccine given, compared with maybe a few million doses of Remdesivir. Lots of criticism of Remdesivir approval being rushed through on poor evidence. Post-approval evidence looking shaky, compared with very strong evidence of vaccines being safe and effective. But nobody is out protesting against Remdesivir.

@wishingitwasspring

To answer your question OP, rather than just bash the unvaccinated...

No one questions any drug prescribed by their doctor, generally, or wants to know the research etc. They won't when they need urgent care for covid.

They just seem to think they know so much about THIS vaccine. That they have the knowledge and ability to think they know better.

Ands that's what really pisses me off.

Ignorance and arrogance.

This!

@wishingitwasspring

To answer your question OP, rather than just bash the unvaccinated...

No one questions any drug prescribed by their doctor, generally, or wants to know the research etc. They won't when they need urgent care for covid.

They just seem to think they know so much about THIS vaccine. That they have the knowledge and ability to think they know better.

Ands that's what really pisses me off.

Ignorance and arrogance.

I don’t think this is true at all.

Are you seriously saying you don’t know anything about medications prescribed to you by a doctor? You don’t read the information sheet or ask questions or do any research at all before taking them (assuming you are conscious and it’s not an emergency)? Really?

If that is the case I find it utterly bizarre. Total ignorance of what you are putting into your body seems absolutely weird and the height of stupidity. Do you realise prescribing and dispensing errors happen? You shouldn’t be blindly swallowing what you are handed!

Ignorance indeed……

@LlamaParma

But where does it end - should obese people who are overweight through over eating be denied treatment for the conditions that are exasperated due to that over eating? After all they don’t respect healthy eating advice so why should they accept the treatment?

See where it could lead to?…

If they refused a simple jab that would significantly reduce the risks of being obese then arguably they shouldn't be treated further until they do.

@Serenschintte

I’m not sure that’s correct about paying for treatment in Switzerland Although it is true some unvaccinated have not been allowed into hospital eg to visit their baby in special care. Ppl should be allowed to choose what they put in their body - it’s called consent. It’s important. And it is possible to have unpleasant side affects from the vaccine - I had a big reaction, a week of tiredness and three weeks of headaches after 2nd Moderna. Another friend had shingles after her vaccination - so so very itchy - I saw the scratches and scars on her arm. A neighbor was vaccine injured - water in lungs, water around her organs. And when she did get Covid it was very mild. She only have 1 vaccine because of the reaction she was advised not to have the next and has spent months having treatment. On the other hand my DH and DS are fine. So yes there should be choice and no negative consequences if one chooses not to be vaccinated. There should be more information about treatments to do early. Often by the time a person gets to hospital it is too little too late. Listen to Joe Rogans’ podcast with Dr McCullough.

I tried getting someone on here to listen to the dr Peter McCullough on here the other day. She completely refused as they are apparently conspiracy theorists even though hes a highly intelligent doctor that an Epidemiologists aswell and being a practicing doctor treating covid patients threw out all of this. No one will listen it's so sad. None of these give a fuck about people having side effects they just want people to get jabbed no matter the risk.

[quote Kshhuxnxk]@Changechangychange
20 November 2020 WHO made a conditional recommendation against the use of Remdesivir.[/quote]
Yep I am aware of that - I was answering somebody upthread who said they all of the treatments for Covid were well-tested and in widespread use, when actually they were not. And yet Trump and various anti-vax groups were pushing for Remdesivir approval on very shaky evidence, while telling people that vaccines were unsafe and untested.

@Abigail12345654321

Speaking as a health professional, yes of course the information contained in the pharmacy notes is important.

If you think that equates to the research in the development of a drug then I'm afraid you're very wrong.

[quote Allmyarseandpeggymartin]@Abigail12345654321

My point is the same as ops - Coronavirus is a relatively new virus, the NHS didn’t know how to treat it but has trailed different treatments and drugs over the last 2 years to save lives.

It’s ironic that anti vaxxers label the vaccines “experimental” - but when the chips are down and they are in a hospital bed gasping for breath they are willing to accept any treatment to get better.

HTH[/quote]
But the vaccines are newly developed and the normal steps to licensing have been accelerated; the ‘treatments’ are generally either simple supportive management like oxygen and ventilation or old known medicines like steroids and antivirals. Nothing novel or experimental there. They’ve been trying out known licensed medicines to see which helps Covid. That isn’t comparable to novel vaccines developed using new methods.

@PurpleIndigoViolet

Do you realise this thread will get pulled... and you'll be unceremoniously deleted without a word of explanation from MNHQ? Happened to a friend the other week who dared to start a thread on such a topic. Give it an hour or so and we'll never see your username again.

What weak arguments

Do fuck off, op

Well no Abigail, people don’t do any research before they take prescribed medications. Googling is not research.

As you say, ignorance indeed……..

My own experience of treating unvaccinated people is that a reasonable number don’t believe they have covid and quite a few demand ivermectin.

Severe hypoxia doesn’t make one more logical.

You don’t read the information sheet or ask questions or do any research at all before taking them (assuming you are conscious and it’s not an emergency)? Really?

I think this is true for lots of people. I know patients who couldn’t tell me what the sternotomy scar on their chest was for (“was it a heart bypass?” “I’ve got no idea doc, isn’t it in my records?”). A heart bypass is major surgery, would involve weeks in hospital, and apparently they didn’t really know why they’d had it done 🤷‍♀️

Lots of people had literally no idea what tablets they are taking, or what they are for. I would say the majority, honestly.

[quote Changechangychange]@Abigail12345654321 Remdesivir has been in clinical trials since 2009, initially found to be ineffective against Hep C. Then between 2013-19 it was trialled against Ebola, and again didn’t do much. Was not licensed in the UK, EU or US during that time, and was not in widespread clinical use anywhere until 2020 when it was approved for use in Covid 19. Still significantly less experience of using Remdesivir than there is in using any of the vaccines - hundreds of millions of doses of each vaccine given, compared with maybe a few million doses of Remdesivir. Lots of criticism of Remdesivir approval being rushed through on poor evidence. Post-approval evidence looking shaky, compared with very strong evidence of vaccines being safe and effective. But nobody is out protesting against Remdesivir.[/quote]
Yes but there is nothing very novel about it.

It drifted into nothingness because it wasn’t needed for Ebola because the disease is so severe the outbreaks burn themselves out.

But it’s important to recognise that simply labelling the vaccine hesitant as stupid or irrational is overly simplistic and untrue. And won’t lead to better vaccine uptake.

But given Covid is going nowhere it’s likely the hesitant will get vaccinated when the evidence strengthens. And many of the currently vaccinated will stop being vaccinated when they perceive the risk/benefit ratio to shift.

Such is life!

@howley1

There are very few true antivaxers who are against all vaccines and medicines and being extra careful about what goes in their body in all other ways..

The vast majority of this anti covid vaccine lot are just a bit thick rather than holding true medicinal understanding & beliefs. So I don't think they would even think twice about accepting everything thrown at them in hospital once they actually get ill.

Exactly this^

"No atheists in foxholes"?

@Changechangychange

You don’t read the information sheet or ask questions or do any research at all before taking them (assuming you are conscious and it’s not an emergency)? Really?

I think this is true for lots of people. I know patients who couldn’t tell me what the sternotomy scar on their chest was for (“was it a heart bypass?” “I’ve got no idea doc, isn’t it in my records?”). A heart bypass is major surgery, would involve weeks in hospital, and apparently they didn’t really know why they’d had it done 🤷‍♀️

I once had a patient who'd had his right lung removed about 15 years previously. Or so he told me

He'd actually had a pleurectomy.

[quote wishingitwasspring]@Abigail12345654321

Speaking as a health professional, yes of course the information contained in the pharmacy notes is important.

If you think that equates to the research in the development of a drug then I'm afraid you're very wrong.
[/quote]
You think the drug information sheets don’t contain current data about known risks and side effects, based on research and accumulating clinical use data?

Why do you think that? And what do you think it is based upon if not research and clinical evidence?

@MissTrip82

Well no Abigail, people don’t do any research before they take prescribed medications. Googling is not research.

As you say, ignorance indeed……..

My own experience of treating unvaccinated people is that a reasonable number don’t believe they have covid and quite a few demand ivermectin.

Severe hypoxia doesn’t make one more logical.

Surely that depends what they google? The medicines compendium is pretty informative. As is NICE guidelines.

What is your point? Mine is that nobody should blinding swallow pills without making sure they are for the condition they have and that they understand the potential side effects. You think this isn’t normal. I think it is normal.

@Abigail12345654321 it really, really isn’t the norm. I wish it was, but it really isn’t. My job (and my hospital pharmacists’ jobs) would be SO much easier if it was.

Totally, I have had 2 jabs and a booster to keep myself as well as possible. The unvaccinated who put everyone else at risk make me so cross. I am repeating the words of a nurse who gave me my booster last week.

So many of these answers aren't related to the OP's question. The OP isn't arguing that treatment should be withheld from people who haven't had their vaccine (which I would be against) but asking whether people who haven't been vaccinated because they feel the vaccines are 'experimental' feel the same way about emerging Covid treatments. I think it's an interesting question!

You can still pass the virus on when you’ve been jabbed. The vaccine is to protect you! Many Dr’s and epidemiologists don’t agree with mandatory vaccines as a negative test is better than relying on a vaccine. Professor Carl Heneghan makes very interesting points on the whole pandemic, not all scientists have the same narrative as SAGE!

Some interesting points here. I think the risk/reward ratio mentioned - which means someone is more likely to seek treatment even though they rejected the vaccine for being too ‘novel’ makes sense.

It still seems to me a lot of anti-vaxxers are holding the vaccine to a much higher standard than they would for any other medical intervention, covid-related or otherwise.

And I would never say NHS treatment should be withheld from anti-vaxxers (or those who are obese, alcoholic, taking part in dangerous sports etc). That was never mentioned in my OP. I’m all for the underlying free treatment to all principles of the NHS.