Do unvaccinated people not see they are part of the problem?

[User135644]

I accept it's people's right whether they get jabbed or not, entirely up to them. However, the more people stubbornly refuse a vaccine then the worse it'll be for all of us. The hospitals will be more stretched and we'll have more restrictions, lockdowns or circuit breakers. People who won't get the vaccine are often the most anti-lockdown or restrictions, yet are part of the problem as to why we'll keep getting them.

Where exactly do they think we'd be without vaccines? We wouldn't have had a relatively normal 6 months or so with everything open, that's for sure.

@bumbleymummy

the issues are with you discouraging vaccination for the general population

You’ve been accusing me of this for some time. It doesn’t make it true. I would never tell someone that they should or shouldn’t have the vaccine. Unlike some people on this thread, I don’t think it is any of my business what decisions people make in relation to their own health.

oh @bumbleymummy this just isn't true

I don't know what I can say to you when you're so dogged about it and have been for an extremely long time. Why not just admit it?

You have a weird thing about vaccination, you do not want it for yourself (fine), but you want to discourage others not to be vaccinated (not fine)

Kokeshi ultimately many Dr's and nurses are parents too.

Their patients are important but not more so than their kids.

This is now getting to the really critical stage for many kids (even if it's probably too late for some).

Kids trump everything.

No, I don’t want to discourage others. I think that anyone who wants to have it should be able have it (including people in developing countries). And, as we discussed, I think we should be trying to encourage higher risk people to have it - you don’t agree with me on that but it doesn’t make me ‘antivaxx’ as much as you would like it to.

And fwiw I’ve had plenty of other vaccines - including a few for travel. :)

*Oh yes the government need to step up. But at the moment it’s the unvaccinated occupying the ICU beds that should be being used for heart problems/ cancer etc etc. If these were dealt with before unvaccinated cases then the waiting list would be much much shorter.

I don’t know why unvaccinated Covid patients aren’t made to wait and let the cancer etc patients be dealt with first.*

The reason Covid patients are not made to wait for a ventilator is that if they would be dead.

OK so almost 90% of the population are vaccinated and almost 50% in ICU are unvaccinated.
To me that is still extremely disproportionate a nd do easily avoided.

The profile of the unvaccinated in ICU is slso very interesting from ICNARC reports. Much younger and less severe comorbity.

@bumbleymummy back in 2011 you are talking about ‘vaccine damaged children’ without context - based on anecdotal evidence of posters on a Mumsnet thread. And an awful lot of posters are challenging you. It’s not right. Concerning - and concerning that Mumsnet are allowing you to post.

O and the only still vaxxer I know who is frightened is frightened of
All her vaccinated family members dying within two years.
The younger family members being unable yo have children.
Ridiculous of course

Anti vaxxer

[quote Beadebaser]@bumbleymummy back in 2011 you are talking about ‘vaccine damaged children’ without context - based on anecdotal evidence of posters on a Mumsnet thread. And an awful lot of posters are challenging you. It’s not right. Concerning - and concerning that Mumsnet are allowing you to post.[/quote]
You’re dragging up a post from 2011 out of context to make out that I’m some kind of antivaxxer? I’d be a pretty crap antivaxxer considering all of my above posts in support of the vaccine on this thread alone never mind the others.

It’s a bit silly having to constantly defend myself against people make accusations and snidey comments that they can never back up. It’s derailing the thread and I’m pretty sure personal attacks and bullying aren’t considered acceptable. Iirc you’ve had posts deleted for that before.

@Kokeshi123

Repeating once more until it sinks in:

The difference between "not being vaccinated" vs "smoking/obesity/sky-diving injuries etc.", is that the "not being vaccinated" thing is surging wildly at a particular time of year, and also (COVID being contagious) causes waves of infection that force HCWs to take time of work. Both of which, coming together at the same time, throws hospitals into chaos.

People here refusing the vaccine need to understand that patience is rapidly running out, for these reasons.

There is zero appetite or capacity for more restrictions in the UK and restrictions and social distancing are not fair on children, and it's making people feel angry and protective of their kids, who they are seeing being deprived of a normal childhood.

If the UK has another bad winter (most likely , I think there will be some pressure but no Apocalypse Now, but who knows), then the knives are really going to come out in 2022. Either you'll face ever harsher rules pressuring you, or there will be growing political pressure to bill you for part of your care, deprioritize you, or something else.

Doctors and nurses, in my experience, are normally pretty strict about "I treat, I don't judge," but I've recently been hearing more and more comments from people who actually work in healthcare services hinting that they are actually getting exasperated to the point that they might be willing to consider stuff like the above.

You need to get your jabs.

Patience is wearing thinner all the time.

As for needle phobes, a nasal spray will apparently be available soon. It's being trialled and looks fine.

@Kokeshi123 - Why do you think you have the authority to speak on behalf of the whole of Great Britain? I am quite sure that there are many, many people who don't share your rather extreme views. I would hope that most people are intelligent enough to realise that the unvaccinated are not to blame for their children being forced to lockdown/socially distance and it is infact far more the fault of our goverment who have failed to properly fund the NHS and get their act together despite having had two years to prepare. With children making up a major part of the unvaxxed population, I find it slightly baffling that you think their parents would be clamouring for harsher restrictions for them. It really doesn't make sense. But then the rest of your post didn't either!

I have a friend who is anti vaccination. And her fear is very real. In one conversation I had with her she was almost in tears because of what she truly believes will happen to us all if we get vaccinated. It is a hugely emotional response. She is now self isolated as she believes vaccinated people are shedding something. I find it very very sad.
@jewel1968 yep my anti vax relative feels exactly the same var the isolating bit.

@bumbleymummy - you asked for evidence as to why people are questioning your views - and I gave it. You used the phrase ‘vaccine damaged children’ back in 2011.

And you have had many posts deleted.

@bumbleymummy

the issues are with you discouraging vaccination for the general population

You’ve been accusing me of this for some time. It doesn’t make it true. I would never tell someone that they should or shouldn’t have the vaccine. Unlike some people on this thread, I don’t think it is any of my business what decisions people make in relation to their own health.

But you absolutely believe, and have been pushing with religious fervour, in a different type of immunity for the general, healthy population, haven't you? The type acquired from natural infection? The only issue with this being a person has to have Covid first, and this, of course, comes with many unknowns.

So @bumbleymummy as you clearly saw from ICNARC over 48% of those in ICU are unvaccinated. This 48% is out of about 10% of the adult population.
This cohort has very similar BMIs to the single or double jabbed.
The main differences is that the vaccinated tend to be older or have severe comorbities. Not much they can do about that.
Yet the unvaccinated could have probably avoided it by being vaccinated.

[quote Beadebaser]@bumbleymummy - you asked for evidence as to why people are questioning your views - and I gave it. You used the phrase ‘vaccine damaged children’ back in 2011.

And you have had many posts deleted.[/quote]
The fact that you’ve gone back to 2011 to drag something up to justify your behaviour towards me speaks volumes. If you have an issue with something that I have written on this thread then by all means reference it and we can have a discussion about it but right now you are just continuing to derail the thread with personal attacks. And you’ve had several posts deleted too - for this type of behaviour.

@Dishhh not ‘pushing’ it but I think it should be recognised, as it has been in other countries eg Switzerland. As I’ve said several times, I think it is people’s personal choice if they want to have the vaccine or not and if they’re happy with that ‘unknown risk’ then that’s up to them. Obviously you disagree but it’s a perfectly valid opinion that many people have so I’m not sure why you feel the need to single me out for it.

@Northsoutheastwest76

So *@bumbleymummy* as you clearly saw from ICNARC over 48% of those in ICU are unvaccinated. This 48% is out of about 10% of the adult population. This cohort has very similar BMIs to the single or double jabbed. The main differences is that the vaccinated tend to be older or have severe comorbities. Not much they can do about that. Yet the unvaccinated could have probably avoided it by being vaccinated.

Yes, which is why, as I said earlier, we should be encouraging people with higher BMIs to be vaccinated, even if they are younger with no comorbidities. Iirc the median BMI of unvaccinated was just over 30? So clearly if there are a large number of unvaccinated obese people in icu then the message hasn’t been getting through that age is not the only risk factor and even if they’re young, with no underlying conditions, they are still at higher risk.

I would never tell someone that they should or shouldn’t have the vaccine.

That's what makes your posting style so pernicious.

@Mrsmch123

How about we lockdown the unvaccinated and leave the vaccinated to get on with their life's🤷🏻‍♀️

Be careful what you are wishing for. The "fully vaccinated" goalpost is keep moving, which you have no control of. One day, if you can not keep up with your next vaccine for whatever reason, you better be happy to get locked up too.

I wish people would stop spouting ‘far right’ when they categorise anti-vaxxers as a whole. It’s very lazy & also especially ironic if/when they also advocate mandatory vax or lockdowns of the unvaxxed.

This isn’t a left/right issue it’s liberty/pro choice vs authoritarianism/Fascism.

@DDUW

I'm unvaccinated. I'm not coming in contact with anybody so I don't see that I am part of the problem.

So you're living like a hermit? How are you managing to get shopping? Assuming you have it delivered if you don't go out - no contact with the supermarket delivery person? The postman? Couriers? What if you need medial assistance?

With children making up a major part of the unvaxxed population, I find it slightly baffling that you think their parents would be clamouring for harsher restrictions for them.

Of course nobody is talking about restrictions on unvaccinated children. Unvaccinated children and teens have such a low risk of hospitalizations even if they get COVID unvaxxed, that such rules would make zero sense and be incredibly divisive. I am talking mainly about adults who are refusing the vax.

I have an anti vaxxer friend on social media who's been complaining that her children have all caught a virus from vaccinated people shedding something. Her 6 kids have been coughing and had bad headaches and fevers since late November but she's adamant it's "some virus that they and many others have picked up from people shedding after the vaccines". She finally tested one of them today, after all of them being out and about the entire time of being ill, and the test is positive. I was surprised to see she had tested because she doesn't believe in covid 🙄

@bumbleymummy

@Dishhh not ‘pushing’ it but I think it should be recognised, as it has been in other countries eg Switzerland. As I’ve said several times, I think it is people’s personal choice if they want to have the vaccine or not and if they’re happy with that ‘unknown risk’ then that’s up to them. Obviously you disagree but it’s a perfectly valid opinion that many people have so I’m not sure why you feel the need to single me out for it.

You've singled yourself out by consistently inserting the 'natural' immunity viewpoint into almost every possible thread that even slightly touches vaccination.

@Whammyyammy what I don't understand is how comes it wasn't a 'choice' whether to adhear to the lockdown restrictions or not? We all had to do that (for the good of the whole country) or face being arrested. I'm all for having choice but when it has so much of a negative impact on society (such as being unvaccinated) it's a different matter.