Do unvaccinated people not see they are part of the problem?

[User135644]

I accept it's people's right whether they get jabbed or not, entirely up to them. However, the more people stubbornly refuse a vaccine then the worse it'll be for all of us. The hospitals will be more stretched and we'll have more restrictions, lockdowns or circuit breakers. People who won't get the vaccine are often the most anti-lockdown or restrictions, yet are part of the problem as to why we'll keep getting them.

Where exactly do they think we'd be without vaccines? We wouldn't have had a relatively normal 6 months or so with everything open, that's for sure.

@chaosrabbitland

its not talking about it though , the only reason these threads are started im sure is so a bunch of smug vaccinated people can all get together and type about how selfish and awful the unvacinnated are not to mention thick and stupid and its all their fault omicron is sweeping the country , they fully deserve to not be treated if they get covid , wouldnt it be great if they were locked in their homes , , and blah blah blah , my daughter is 13 and wont have the vaccine which is her choice and fine with me , im not forcing her , iv never done a lateral flow test ever , and i wont wear a mask and havent complied with lockdowns , not hard really as im an essential worker anyway , if people want to judge me they can , i dont care what randoms think , and it doesnt offend whatsoever , its pitiful what a bunch of mindless idiots that a lot of people have become though , mindlessly swallowing the goverment propganda , boris johnson and his faithfull scientists plus sage would be rubbing their hands together at a lot of these comments

Jesus - there are literally no words. Amazingly, the fact that you’re not vaccinated pales into insignificance really!

This is a good article in today's Sunday Times by Dr Phil Hammond

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/were-being-asked-to-save-the-nhs-again-but-isnt-it-supposed-to-save-us-j760hrmmm

The gist of the article is that vaccines are very important.

However the very last two paragraphs are very good:

"What we can all improve is our own health. Reducing your risk of serious Covid illness is important (yes, get boostered) but it’s just one risk. If you’re deconditioned by lockdown, the stairs can be as dangerous as Sars. Clear the house of trip hazards. Don’t cold-call the elderly and ask them to read the meter. If you’re getting frail, practise going to ground and getting up again. I’ve lost count of the lives I’ve seen ruined by falls.

Then there’s the junk food, alcohol and cigarettes that cause far more self-harm and burden on the NHS than Covid ever will. Cut back on those and you might even save yourself, your Christmas and your NHS."

Whoever said upthread that the unvaccinated have become convenient scapegoats in this sorry mess was absolutely right.

And why is nobody mentioning the fact that Omicron got into Europe via vaccinated travellers? What is the point of obsessively vaccinating the western world while Third World countries have no vaccines? Until the whole world is vaccinated - which it never will be - this virus is going to keep mutating and infecting us all. People really need to get their heads around this and stop blaming other people.

There are very strong views on both sides. I have chosen not to have this vaccine although I have just about had every other one going.

There is no way one side of this argument can convince the other side. It just is as it is. If I am denied NHS care because I don't have the vaccine that is the choice of the state (I would like a £500,000 tax refund however if they did that and to see anyone over weight denied NHS care too). I provide a huge amount of tax for the country (as do many others) and I don't really go out much at all so am hardly a super spreader.

@BenjiMcSchmenzie

This is a good article in today's Sunday Times by Dr Phil Hammond

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/were-being-asked-to-save-the-nhs-again-but-isnt-it-supposed-to-save-us-j760hrmmm

The gist of the article is that vaccines are very important.

However the very last two paragraphs are very good:

"What we can all improve is our own health. Reducing your risk of serious Covid illness is important (yes, get boostered) but it’s just one risk. If you’re deconditioned by lockdown, the stairs can be as dangerous as Sars. Clear the house of trip hazards. Don’t cold-call the elderly and ask them to read the meter. If you’re getting frail, practise going to ground and getting up again. I’ve lost count of the lives I’ve seen ruined by falls.

Then there’s the junk food, alcohol and cigarettes that cause far more self-harm and burden on the NHS than Covid ever will. Cut back on those and you might even save yourself, your Christmas and your NHS."

Whoever said upthread that the unvaccinated have become convenient scapegoats in this sorry mess was absolutely right.

And why is nobody mentioning the fact that Omicron got into Europe via vaccinated travellers? What is the point of obsessively vaccinating the western world while Third World countries have no vaccines? Until the whole world is vaccinated - which it never will be - this virus is going to keep mutating and infecting us all. People really need to get their heads around this and stop blaming other people.

Third world countries…. They aren’t flying unless rich

I also never don’t use the NHS for any healthcare for my family so no pressure is added from my family in other ways.

So no accidents ever, no babies born, no heart attacks or other emergencies that generally get treated by the NHS.

Even if you go private for most healthcare needs, you will need the NHS at some point in your life.

@Xenia sorry, but it’s your civic duty to get a vaccine. It really is. Morally, I can’t see you have a choice left right now.

I’m not dismissing needle phobias in any way but I work in an ARB with children with high SEND.
Most of them have phobias of needles but every single one of their parents (apart from one who happens not to believe in covid) have signed the consent form for their children to have it - not only so they don’t become seriously ill with it but knowing that if they did become seriously ill they wouldn’t be able to cope being in hospital having to have multiple injections a day.

Roll on government bringing in mandatory vaccine laws and sanctions for those who refuse to carry out their civic duty (obviously barring those who have a medical reason not to, including needle phobia that can’t be overcome with professional help).

[quote Bebedoogoogle]@Xenia sorry, but it’s your civic duty to get a vaccine. It really is. Morally, I can’t see you have a choice left right now.[/quote]
Without choice we may as well all end it now!

@LemonSwan

I dont think they are necessarily part of the problem.

It depends who you are. If you are 50/ 60/70 then yes you are a problem. If you are 80/90 and have signed a DNR then no you are not a problem. Likewise younger people unlikely to end up in ICU I dont see a problem.

I am actually more concerned with the guidelines for vaccinated people; and I consider that a way larger problem.

I work in a care home and obviously we are all vaxxed due to the law. I have numerous colleagues who are being forced to come to work whilst they have family members they live with who are testing positive. This to me is a big concern! Far more so than someone young and healthy unvaccinated!

One of the most sensible posts on this discussion.

I'm not an antivaxxer but can definitely see where their opinions come from.

1. Not trusting the government, when they have clearly shown themselves not to be trustworthy, e.g. by not even following their own advice on COVID.
2. People in ethnic minorities have long histories of having medicine treat them in unethical ways, such as not treating them for syphilis when treatment existed. More recently of course there has been the Windrush scandal, again making them distrust the authorities. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
3. Most people genuinely don't understand the scientific process, and some of the stuff (e.g. MRNA vaccines) do sound scary unless you can understand what it really means.
4. They simultaneously want to see themselves as someone who is an independent thinker.

We would be much less likely to be facing this Omicron debarcle if we adequately supported poor countries in their efforts to vaccinate the whole world.

@TheMummilly but the consequences of that choice are so bad, that we don’t really have a choice but to take away personal choice.

Mandatory vaccines will become law soon. I can’t see how this situation can continue.

After early middle age I can no longer see any logic in NOT getting a covid vaccine tbh, however fit you might be for your age.
It's a sad fact that the immune system ages.

Such zealous adherence and proclamations reminds me so much of something .else that has occurred throughout modern history .. now what is that, exactly ... ??

My brother thinks that people who wear masks or get their boosters are thick, cowardly sheep (he has also said much worse).

However his partners organ donor surgery has now been postponed 3 times because there is no available ITU bed for him post surgery and he absolutely fails to see the tragic irony of it.

His latest ramblings have signalled the end for me unfortunately - I just can't see myself wanting to have a relationship with him in the future.

And mine 😂😂 and they may well have a point!

[quote Bebedoogoogle]@TheMummilly but the consequences of that choice are so bad, that we don’t really have a choice but to take away personal choice.

Mandatory vaccines will become law soon. I can’t see how this situation can continue.[/quote]
You truly believe the consequences are 'so bad' that this warrants the taking away of personal choice?! I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.
What do you think is going to happen??

[quote Bebedoogoogle]@TheMummilly but the consequences of that choice are so bad, that we don’t really have a choice but to take away personal choice.

Mandatory vaccines will become law soon. I can’t see how this situation can continue.[/quote]
Where have you read that mandatory vaccines will become law soon?

@MissEyelesbarrow

You derided *@WanderingFruitWonderer* post of 5000 people in hospital as a guess (they'd said "I believe" as an indicator it was such). Your own "rebutting" of my wanting more clarity on WITH versus OF COVID confirms that *@WanderingFruitWonderer* wasn't wildly out.

"There were 7,611 patients in hospital with coronavirus on 16 December 2021." 80% (primary admission) of 7611 is 6088 - more of course, but didn't warrant the scorn.
And life-style caused diseases?? which was the point of their reply, if we are going to go down the road of only giving care to those considered worthy or attributing cost to those with a less than impeccable lifestyle. One person's (occasionally reasonable) fear should not dictate another person's body autonomy.

I won't link the article, it's easy enough to find.
"There is no explanation as to why I had it so bad. I've always been prone to coughs and chest infections but I've never been diagnosed with any underlying conditions. My lungs took a hiding - they just couldn't handle it." - Said an obese COVID patient with "a clean bill of health" (Wales online). Thankfully he survived but had he not he would have been recorded as a perfectly healthy young death! What is considered healthy, both in reality and the official statistics, has become extremely skewed.

Thanks @MissEyelesbarrow yes, I was indeed guessing, based on something I'd read recently. Cases may have gone up since then. I think my initial post may have been misunderstood by some people? I haven't read the whole thread, and I'm a bit scared to, if I've been so severely derided! I didn't mean to offend anyone at all. For the record, to explain, I'm passionate about universal healthcare for all. I think everyone deserves care, regardless of lifestyle. No matter what. I wasn't saying anything whatsoever to the contrary of that, nor would I (in fact I'm horrified by the idea of anyone being denied care, or judged for their lifestyle choices) all I meant was, and all I'm trying to say is, that blaming the potential collapse of the NHS on the unvaccinated, is unfair. I think health messaging needs to be holistic. To be honest, I find this thread a bit scary. The level of hate (no exaggeration) directed at people who've opted out of a medical procedure, is very disturbing. I do sometimes wonder if the Mumsnet coronavirus topic isn't just terrible for my mental health. I should stay away, but keep feeling compelled to return! Silly me 🤷‍♀️

I've had both vaccines and have my booster tomorrow.

Since mass vaccination the only people I know who have had Covid have been similarly vaccinated. Admittedly I only know a few openly unvaccinated people.

Everybody has different anecdotes though.

@TerraNovaTwo

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but can you not understand that these people are genuinely frightened? Are we no longer allowed to question science or has it become a doctrine to blindly follow?

And since when do we follow advice, laws and orders from unelected officials (Chris Whitty - who is not the only expert in his field) ?

🤦‍♀️ Since forever They’re called government advisors Even in Tudor times the monarch had advisors, in WWll Churchill had advisors. That’s the point of government- to govern based on the best most balanced view of experts If the government didn’t listen to advisors god knows where we’d be- And no Whitby isn’t the only expert- he is the spokesman and his position comes from Sage, public health etc. really?

[quote CherryBlossomAutumn]@OMG12 No I don’t think you are right at all. It’s healthy and fine to say - unvaccinated people are part of the problem. It’s some of the anti Vaxxers and anti maskers who are aggressive, violent and sending death threats. Have you seen America? Shop staff being physically attacked for asking someone to wear a mask. On twitter it is the anti Vaxxers who are saying ‘rise up and overthrow those oppressing you’ as if it is a war.

We need to be very vigilant and question the anti vax movement - it is driven by a violent far right agenda.

Never seen someone being attacked for not wearing a mask![/quote]
It’s interesting isn’t it, I purposely wrote my post to be neutral, I never actually said which side I was portraying, so I actually could have been writing about the very people you describe.

But that’s the thing we are creating a division where both sides are claiming superiority but also simultaneously claiming to be the victim and not taking the time to understand the other, division leads to conflict and conflict leads to war.

I have seen people attacked and abused for not wearing a mask, never seen it the other way round, but that’s not to say it doesn’t happen.

We need to learn from history the dangers of creating deep divisions and blame in society (and yes that works both ways).

Everyone is angry and scared, some people are scared about a virus, others losing jobs, the threat to their beliefs, the threat of exclusion from society.

All I’m saying is constantly trying to blame others rather than understand is toxic, both for ourselves and wider society. That applies to everyone equally. Everyone is behaving like cornered rats.

At some point corona virus will no longer really be an issue -it’s unlikely to disappear (although some do by vaccine -small pox or naturally - sweating sickness potentially). What sort of society do we want to be left with? Deep divisions created in the heat of the moment can take centuries to heal.

I have unvaccinated friends who are waiting a couple of years before getting vaccinated.
As far as they're concerned, the vaccines are still in the early stages of testing, even if they are being tested on a lot of people!
I accept their point of view.

One couple that were initially dubious realised that they would need to be vaccinated to travel abroad so they did get the jabs over the summer - elderly family members abroad that could involve a last-minute flight, etc.

Another couple are also now considering it for the same reason & have realised that if their parents in the EU become ill, they will not be able to travel to see them, even when the borders re-open.

@WanderingFruitWonderer I completely agree about holistic health care. The number of people who seem to think Covid vaccines and boosters will save them from death and disease, no matter what their lifestyle is like, is just staggering.

If there are restrictions again, for god's sake keep leisure centres, gyms, parks and sports clubs open.

I’ve not been vaccinated as when they offered it to my age group I was only a few week away from giving birth and thought I might aswell leave it til after baby was born.

Baby was born and didn’t get round to it, we all caught covid (me,DH and 8 kids!) it was basically a horrible cold that made me knackered and lost my taste for a few days.

Exdh was vaccinated and caught it at the same time as our kids go between my house and his, he wasn’t hospitalised but was much much worse than us. Maybe he’d have been worse if he hadn’t have had it, who knows.

I heard on radio 2 the other day the people who are hospitalised atm are 50/50 vaccinated and unvaccinated. So I don’t feel a rush to go and get it because as far as I can see it doesn’t offer much protection. I may have it at some point though.