Do unvaccinated people not see they are part of the problem?

[User135644]

I accept it's people's right whether they get jabbed or not, entirely up to them. However, the more people stubbornly refuse a vaccine then the worse it'll be for all of us. The hospitals will be more stretched and we'll have more restrictions, lockdowns or circuit breakers. People who won't get the vaccine are often the most anti-lockdown or restrictions, yet are part of the problem as to why we'll keep getting them.

Where exactly do they think we'd be without vaccines? We wouldn't have had a relatively normal 6 months or so with everything open, that's for sure.

You derided @WanderingFruitWonderer post of 5000 people in hospital as a guess (they'd said "I believe" as an indicator it was such). Your own "rebutting" of my wanting more clarity on WITH versus OF COVID confirms that @WanderingFruitWonderer wasn't wildly out.

"There were 7,611 patients in hospital with coronavirus on 16 December 2021." 80% (primary admission) of 7611 is 6088 - more of course, but didn't warrant the scorn.
And life-style caused diseases?? which was the point of their reply, if we are going to go down the road of only giving care to those considered worthy or attributing cost to those with a less than impeccable lifestyle. One person's (occasionally reasonable) fear should not dictate another person's body autonomy.

I won't link the article, it's easy enough to find.
"There is no explanation as to why I had it so bad. I've always been prone to coughs and chest infections but I've never been diagnosed with any underlying conditions. My lungs took a hiding - they just couldn't handle it." - Said an obese COVID patient with "a clean bill of health" (Wales online). Thankfully he survived but had he not he would have been recorded as a perfectly healthy young death! What is considered healthy, both in reality and the official statistics, has become extremely skewed.

My cousin has had 2 vaccines and she’s seriously ill in bed with COVID right now, fighting for breath…….now……you tell me….do the vaccines work? No they obviously fucking don’t

It's a myth that vaccines offer 100% guaranteed protection, no-one ever promised that. But without being double vaccinated she might well be in a much worse state. I hope that she makes a full recovery.

Only know a couple of people, that I'm aware of, who haven't got vaccinated (UK).

The only thing they have in common with each other (evident pre-Covid) is that they both have an over-inflated view of their own intelligence/ reasoning ability.

At no point in history, have we ever said natural immunity is crap. But all of a sudden with covid, it's not good enough. Untrue, we’ve always known that avoiding disease is incredibly important, as there are all sorts of short term (illness, death) from catching the disease, and long term (e.g. shingles).

So we’ve always avoiding catching disease. Natural immunity is not something we have ever sought. Better always, always to avoid.

Who needs vaccines?

Er - oh. Because without them we'd still be dying of dytheria, smallpox, polio, tetanus, yellow fever, cholera, rubella, hepatitis B, measles...

@CoastalWave Id like to see proof of antibodies from previous infections being included on a vaccine passport

@CherryBlossomAutumn You have no idea, do you, to really be in this situation?

Continue to be self righteous and uncaring to the situation of others.

I'm fully vaxxed but I don't believe they work even nearly well enough to make a difference. I did it so I could still go on holiday not because I give a fuck about covid. I couldn't care less what people do as clearly the vaccines aren't that effective if they're now trying to bully / scare people into a third and then what a fourth....

[quote Pontypandytaxpayer]@chaosrabbitland

You have used more derogatory language than anyone else on the thread![/quote]
cant help it im afraid , you have just replied to a person whos posted that their relative with covid whos vaccinated is fighting for breath ,with oh shes at home , not in hospital thats good enough for me , sorry what the hell kind of person comes out with that , i presume if the relative dies at home and not in hospital that will be ok with you too lol ,
is that really all you could think to say to this poster was that ?

im starting to think my idea of hell would be getting stuck on an island with posters like you and many of the others on here

@AgathaAllAlong

I disagree with what you're saying. There is no evidence that the vaccine stops you from spreading the virus. Yes, it might diminish your symptoms, but that will only make a difference if you're in the age range likely to need hospitalisation.

It's the vaccine boosters that are taking resources at the minute, not hospital treatment for the unvaccinated.

The stupid really do walk among us.

@CherryBlossomAutumn

The rationale behind a third dose is less obvious to me. I'll happily read any recommended papers. Immunity wanes around 6 months, and after 9 months is low enough that they are considering any vaccine passports would be void.

Also. Omicron. Pfizer found that after

• 2 vaccinations - 35% effective against omicron. 80/90% against delta.
• 2 vaccinations plus booster - 75% effective against omicron.

This is being slightly mis reported, Pfizer looked at 2 doses of Pfizer, with a Pfizer booster.

The majority in this country had 2 x AZ, then offered a Pfizer or Moderna booster.

2 x AZ gives almost zero protection from infection from Omicron, so whats the protection after a mRNA vaccine? going to less than with 2 x Pfizer.

YOU are the problem if you don’t stay at home 100% of the time.

The vaccine isn’t perfect. It protects you.

@Alexandra2001 feel free to put up the full information. I just did a shortened version to help out another poster.

At no point in history, have we ever said natural immunity is crap. But all of a sudden with covid, it's not good enough.

Covid isn't chickenpox though. It tends to be a one off although you can later have shingles.

Flu is probably more comparable. You can catch it more than once and its deadly too. That's why many people get a flu jab annually.

Flu has been around for hundreds of years, yet still people catch it and die from it, even though they have likely been exposed many times, even had it previously.

Totally summed up my feelings too. They can’t have it both ways.

It's the vaccine boosters that are taking resources at the minute, not hospital treatment for the unvaccinated.

Huh!?
That doesn’t even make sense.

@CherryBlossomAutumn

The rationale behind a third dose is less obvious to me. I'll happily read any recommended papers. Immunity wanes around 6 months, and after 9 months is low enough that they are considering any vaccine passports would be void.

Also. Omicron. Pfizer found that after

• 2 vaccinations - 35% effective against omicron. 80/90% against delta.
• 2 vaccinations plus booster - 75% effective against omicron.

Yes, this is what I have seen too. Immunity (as measured by neutralising antibody response) as a result of vaccination drops off sharply at 6 months post-vaccination.

But the response is more persistent with immunity resulting from infection and recovery. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34899762/

I am not saying that the vaccine is terrible, or that it is dangerous. I am saying that it is disingenuous to rubbish natural immunity in a bid to elevate the status of the vaccine. Currently it looks like infection and recovery followed by one dose of vaccine is superior to other combinations. I don't necessary see the value in repeated doses for those who have previously recovered from covid - in fact, I'd worry that if you keep hammering the body with an immune stimulus, you might eventually get a down-regulated response to that stimulus as a result.

All evolving. The picture is definitely not as clear-cut as some on this thread make it out to be.

@chaosrabbitland
ooo wouldnt you just believe it lol , im vaccinated and i smoke , gosh how strange is that !! some of the shit on this thread is pricelss , it just keeps on giving

You don’t see the irony in people not wanting to put something in their body that is new and possibly dodgy (in their eyes), yet puffing away on 4,000 chemicals, some of which are known carcinogens, multiple times a day?

Oh, ok then 🤣

If you have a needle phobia seek professional help. I appreciate it is difficult and traumatic, but you must have your fear.

It is NOT a valid reason not to have the vaccine.

There is plenty of help out there for you. We have specially trained staff who can use psychological techniques with you, to get you in the position to take the vaccine.

Please reach out and seek help. The possibility of intubation is far, far worse.

@HangingOutWithTheSandman

*I think you’re misunderstanding the situation. Yes you’re at less risk of catching Covid than your sociable vaccinated friends. But if they catch it, chances are they’ll be fine. If you catch it, you are more likely than them to be ill. You may need to be hospitalised. And you are therefore part of the problem that is overwhelming the NHS, and that is what is leading to us needing restrictions.*

I’m not misunderstanding at all. I’m not vaccinated but I’m doing everything else I can to reduce risk to myself and others. The risk of me getting very ill is higher than if vaccinated but it’s still a very small risk as I’m healthy. It could happen but it’s unlikely. That’s what I have chosen. I haven’t caused any issue for the NHS so far. I could but I am unlikely to.

I also never don’t use the NHS for any healthcare for my family so no pressure is added from my family in other ways.

There are various things that can be done to reduce likelihood of becoming very ill with covid and needing hospital treatment. Vaccination is an important one. Being a healthy weight seems to be another. So in terms of pressure on the NHS, it’s odd that we only pick out being unvaccinated. If everyone was a healthy weight, that too would help.

If pressure on the NHS is the issue, I hope everyone is doing everything else to minimise their risk. In a country with so many fat people, I don’t think they are.

If there was the possibility of up to 1 million people suddenly all becoming fat on one single day, I could kind of get your point. The knock-on effect of a proportion of them needing hospital treatment at the same time would not be good.

Next argument/justification please.

[quote CherryBlossomAutumn]@Alexandra2001 feel free to put up the full information. I just did a shortened version to help out another poster.[/quote]
I can't find it, only that a booster in AZ vaxxed gives a 25x increase in antibodies but not what the antibody or protection level was pre booster.

So, my take is that if you had AZ, having a booster is even more important than ever.

I just wonder if antivaxxers also question plane design or the electronics in their TV or Phone?

*face your fear

@BigHuff the trouble is, natural immunity is being cited again and again by anti Vaxxers, anti maskers, herd immunity covid deniers etc.

So that we do have to be incredibly careful.

One thing that is always missed in natural immunity ‘propoganda’ is that - to get it - you have to factor in that you might die or get seriously ill! That’s a HUGE factor. Herd immunity is never, ever, ever a good idea.

@Bebedoogoogle

If you have a needle phobia seek professional help. I appreciate it is difficult and traumatic, but you must have your fear.

It is NOT a valid reason not to have the vaccine.

There is plenty of help out there for you. We have specially trained staff who can use psychological techniques with you, to get you in the position to take the vaccine.

Please reach out and seek help. The possibility of intubation is far, far worse.

It is all well and good saying there are trained staff at the centre to help, but they are not there to get through the anxiety of booking the appointment to start with, or getting through the sleepless nights of worry, or getting to the centre, and then getting through the door.

@Alexandra2001 it’s all really new information isn’t it. Even the Pfizer stats, 75% from booster was from a small study quickly put together.

I also wonder if people realize how vulnerable they are from AZ vaccines to omicron?

Other countries are already saying that they are looking closely at England expecting a higher surge because of the amount of people not protected.