New York City - New Mandates

[Gooseandamoose]

For anyone who hasn't seen it on the news, NYC mayor Bill de Blasio announced two new vaccine mandates yesterday for New York city

1. All private sector employees will have to be vaccinated without testing as a substitute. This is in addition to the mandates for many public sector workers that are already in place.

1. All children from 5 and up will have to be vaccinated with one shot to access indoor dining, museums and indoor entertainment venues. In addition, "Children between 5 and 11 will also be required to get vaccinated to participate in high-risk extracurricular activities. These activities include sports, band, orchestra, and dance. "

So that's pretty much everyone that will need to be vaccinated to work (unless self employed for the time being anyway) or do anything indoors in NYC, including kids from 5 and up.

Total insanity. Also going to scurper a lot of family holidays to NYC!

It does affect British children who can no longer visit New York. So, as Brits we’re allowed to analyse why and that includes taking account of the medical advice we’re given in our country. Think that’s fair enough.

It affects British children whose parents are affluent enough to fly them to New York.

That's a very, very tiny number of British children, but their plight has seemingly touched the hearts of a determined coterie on this site.

You use very emotive language but completely ignore the fact that the JCVI didn’t support the universal vaccination of children age 12-15 in the U.K

Yeah, I think one glance at the mortality figures and the reports of chaos in British schools where students are not required to wear masks should be enough to persuade most people that the JCVI has dropped the ball on this one.

@mathanxiety

I suspect most of them would absolutely hate the world they seem to be wanting. It is very easy to advocate for something that one knows would not happen. But then when it does...

I live in a world where my children would be excluded from school without proof of vaccination against childhood diseases.

I like it very much.

And what all does that really have to do with the current pandemic mitigation?

The references to things like smallpox, polio, the MMR, other childhood vaccines are not good comparisons.

To begin with, none of those are required for access to places of general public accommodation. Those vaccines tend to provide much better, and much longer term protection. Those vaccines are available and routinely given starting at birth, with many cycles complete before the childs first birthday.

In the case of covid, and vaccine mandates for strict public health, even if the current approved populations were 100% vaccinated with no exceptions, there are enough unapproved children to overcome the current R0.

Am I saying we should just do nothing then? No. Absolutely not. But given the current political and polarized climate, these mandates and the way they are being implemented, given the nature of covid, are doing more harm than good socially.

[quote Skinnytailedsquirrel]@XenoBitch "Some people are terrified to have the vaccine... could be fear of side effects, the fact they had side effects from a previous jab, a needle phobia... maybe someone is so far deep into the conspiracy rabbit hole that they genuinely believe that there is a chip in the vaccine. Such a person needs help, not derision. None of these things would make them medically exempt.
Yet all of the above would not fall into the definition of anti-vaxxer either."

THEY ARE ALL ANTI=VAXXERS. HTH[/quote]
No they are not anti vaxxers, don't be so ridiculous.

I have a needle phobia. Somehow I have had my two vaccines and I have booked for a booster which I may or may not be able to go through with. It will depend on if I have to queue, if DH can go in with me, whether I can have Pfizer or if they are only offering Moderna or, most likely, how I feel on the day.

None of that makes me an anti vaxxer so please fuck off with your uninformed judgemental bollocks.

Some people are terrified to have the vaccine... could be fear of side effects, the fact they had side effects from a previous jab, a needle phobia... maybe someone is so far deep into the conspiracy rabbit hole that they genuinely believe that there is a chip in the vaccine. Such a person needs help, not derision. None of these things would make them medically exempt.
Yet all of the above would not fall into the definition of anti-vaxxer either.

How would you enforce compulsory vaccinations?

Exactly as NYC is proposing to do.

That is, convincing people that there is a down side to self indulgence.

Oh another one @mathanxiety. If I manage to have to have the booster on Sunday (something else I'm apparently selfish for according to MN) it will probably be the last one. I'd rather not go anywhere than go through this every six months. If you think feeling like that is 'self indulgence' then you really haven't thought it through,

@mathanxiety

Some people are terrified to have the vaccine... could be fear of side effects, the fact they had side effects from a previous jab, a needle phobia... maybe someone is so far deep into the conspiracy rabbit hole that they genuinely believe that there is a chip in the vaccine. Such a person needs help, not derision. None of these things would make them medically exempt. Yet all of the above would not fall into the definition of anti-vaxxer either.

How would you enforce compulsory vaccinations?

Exactly as NYC is proposing to do.

That is, convincing people that there is a down side to self indulgence.

Wait, anxiety is self indulgence?

@mathanxiety

You know that ‘firewall’ can also contain people who have recovered from the virus, right?

@bumbleymummy
I normally don't engage with people who are science deniers, but your comments are irresistible.

Natural immunity wanes very quickly with covid.

@mathanxiety Natural immunity doesn't wane very quickly. Where do you get this information from? It's still being studied, T cells and B cells might last for years Plus reinfection is very low according to our ONS study. Plus natural immunity doesn't just rely on the spike protein for defense like the vaccines : which maybe why natural immunity plus booster looks like possibly the best defense against Omicron.

Looks like the mandate is being put on hold by the courts www.wsj.com/articles/judge-temporarily-halts-new-york-city-covd-19-vaccine-mandate-for-public-workers-11638975629

@XenoBitch it seems as though those of us with needle/medical phobias are now fair game on MN. Apparently 'be kind' only applies to certain issues.

[quote PinkSparklyPussyCat]@XenoBitch it seems as though those of us with needle/medical phobias are now fair game on MN. Apparently 'be kind' only applies to certain issues.[/quote]
I have noticed that a lot.
I did see a poster mention her severely phobic teen who has not been vaccinated. Outpouring of nice comments.
Post on here as a phobic adult? Total opposite.

Seems a bit of a stretch to suggest vaccinating your 5 year old in NYC creates a vaccine 'firewall' in 3rd world countries though mathsanxiety? And upthread, since when is 'libertarian" a bad thing? I mean Boris is many bad things, but I don't agree that's one of them.

@mathanxiety Our mortality figures are lower than the US. Also masks have been worn consistently in some parts of the U.K. (e.g. Scotland) but they have been no better off as far as case rates go. No chaos is my DCs school either.

“Looks like the mandate is being put on hold by the courts www.wsj.com/articles/judge-temporarily-halts-new-york-city-covd-19-vaccine-mandate-for-public-workers-11638975629”

Thank goodness for that. I hope this insanity ends.

@mathanxiety

Yes. Do you understand that the majority of the world isn’t vaccinated - including vulnerable people and health care workers in developing countries? I think your concern about mutations is somewhat misplaced. (Or completely fake)

Thanks, @bumbleymummy, for making my point. We need to vaccinate so that we can stop the spread and prevent multiplication of mutations, especially in vulnerable populations where healthcare is patchy and where millions are malnourished or already suffering from chronic conditions.

Right…. And the way to do that is to keep vaccinating young, healthy people (many of whom have had the virus and recovered) and ignore the millions of unvaccinated vulnerable in developing countries? Sure… I think you’re being disingenuous.

People just aren't getting that it isn't about them. It isn't about individuals. It's about the collective effort to keep hospitalisations as low as possible so society can keep functioning.

I genuinely think Britain is such a selfish, self absorbed, individualistic nation that a lot of people here truly cannot grasp the concept of a 'greater good'. Not doing things because the government tells you to, but because they're the right things to do. My Japanese and Korean friends have a completely different outlook on all of it.

@mathanxiety science-denier? no, definitely not. I’m a big fan of science.

Switzerland has just extended its presumptive immunity to 12 months. Does that make them ‘science deniers’?

Can you define ‘very quickly’? People are being offered boosters 3-6 months after their initial vaccines. Does that mean that you think immunity from the vaccines wanes ‘very quickly’?

No ‘chaos’ in my DC’s schools either.

@megustalacerveza thank god I don't have their mentality. Of course we are all selfish! Can I march up to someone and demand money because I'm poor, then call them selfish if they don't give me any?

@mathanxiety There was a study in the UK by Imperial College London back in Sept that actually showed vaccine passports in the UK could increase vaccine hesitancy. Certainly I know 2 people who said they wouldn't get their boosters if VP were brought in because they did not agree with it.
Maybe that's why so far the UK is not going to go down the mandatory vaccine route because they are listening to experts. We can live in hope.

The word selfish is about to become the latest casualty of the English language.

@megustalacerveza

People just aren't getting that it isn't about them. It isn't about individuals. It's about the collective effort to keep hospitalisations as low as possible so society can keep functioning.

I genuinely think Britain is such a selfish, self absorbed, individualistic nation that a lot of people here truly cannot grasp the concept of a 'greater good'. Not doing things because the government tells you to, but because they're the right things to do. My Japanese and Korean friends have a completely different outlook on all of it.

Oh the selfish individualist Brits, off to gulag with them! For the "greater good"

@mathanxiety

No, they've chosen to do what they consider is best for them. I considered vaccination was best for me.

Or maybe they understand that as long as there is a pool of people refusing vaccination, refusing to participate in erecting a firewall against the virus, the virus can spread and mutate.

There are a lot of people on this thread incapable of holding more than one concept in their brains at a time. The argument for vaccination has multiple facets, all based on the behaviour of the virus and what we know about the nature of all viruses

Vaccinate children because:
They can spread the virus, especially when cooped up all day in schools where they are not wearing masks,
The virus can mutate in an unvaccinated population where spread is not controlled,
A sufficiently mutated vaccine can get past previous incarnations of the vaccine, necessitating another round for everyone and death for those unlucky enough to miss out.

This isn't hard. Engage your brains and think things through.

There is no I or Me to this. You have to think on a larger scale.

This is wishful thinking.

All of it. Everything you say here is wishful thinking.

There will be no firewall. Because what you mean when you say firewall is herd immunity. We cannot and will not achieve that with current covid vaccines because they are not effective enough at preventing infection and transmission at baseline and they are even less effective against emerging mutations.

The virus is infecting, spreading, and mutating in the vaccinated, not only in the unvaccinated.

And yes, it does look like a sufficiently mutated virus will render the vaccines even less effective than they already are.

Do you really think that our mass vaccination is having zero effect on the evolution of the virus? Have you considered that mass vaccination (of people who do not need the protection against severe disease that the vaccines do appear to provide) is giving vaccine resistant mutations (such as Omicron it would appear) a competitive advantage over other less infectious less vaccine resistant mutations??

This is the potentially larger scale. This is where we need to engage our brains and think things through.

I hope that I am wrong and you are right. But currently, the emerging data does not back up your wishful thinking. Unfortunately.

@HelplesslyHoping Jesus. Do you live in NY then? You sound like a raving loony