New York City - New Mandates

[Gooseandamoose]

For anyone who hasn't seen it on the news, NYC mayor Bill de Blasio announced two new vaccine mandates yesterday for New York city

1. All private sector employees will have to be vaccinated without testing as a substitute. This is in addition to the mandates for many public sector workers that are already in place.

1. All children from 5 and up will have to be vaccinated with one shot to access indoor dining, museums and indoor entertainment venues. In addition, "Children between 5 and 11 will also be required to get vaccinated to participate in high-risk extracurricular activities. These activities include sports, band, orchestra, and dance. "

So that's pretty much everyone that will need to be vaccinated to work (unless self employed for the time being anyway) or do anything indoors in NYC, including kids from 5 and up.

Total insanity. Also going to scurper a lot of family holidays to NYC!

[quote mathanxiety]@Louisa92, the problem isn't kids getting mild cases of covid.

The problem is kids with mild covid sneezing, coughing, and infecting adults who are trying to make a living and keep a roof over their families and food on their tables.

Children are virus vectors. That is why schools in my suburb and hundreds of others have mask mandates ( which some parents have been very precious about too).

[/quote]
Children are virus vectors? What a nasty thing to say. This is what people are turning into from all the Covid hysteria. It's not enough that they and everyone around them are triple vaccinated (and therefore as protected as they can be) but they can't stand any little ones not being Covid jabbed and letting out a few coughs and sneezes as kids do everywhere, Covid or not. How very sad for you and your perception of world and life.

Bloody hell, I thought New York was supposed to be one of the most liberal, democratic and rights-orientated places in the world, not some sort of sci-fi dystopia.

Just shows it is not really about health or the virus if they will not accept testing as a substitute. Just about authoritarianism and control.

"No vaccine is without risk.
*
However I think the emerging problem that we are seeing with the current covid vaccines is that they do not prevent infection and transmission. And the virus is mutating.

I think it is worrying that the new variant appears to have multiple mutations to the spike protein. And I think it begs the question is vaccination immunity giving such mutations a "competitive advantage" and allowing them to become dominant?

I don't know and I hope not but I can't help thinking that this whole thing is not as simple as;

vaccinated = good
unvaccinated = bad

Do human beings have experience of mass vaccination in a pandemic situation with a vaccine that does not prevent infection and transmission?

I don't believe for a second that our mass vaccination is having no effect on the evolution of the virus.

Which is not to say that I don't think the vaccines have their place. I think they do - in protecting vulnerable people from severe disease, hospitalization and death.

But I think mandatory vaccination of individuals who do not need the protection provided by vaccines is playing with fire. The virus will continue to mutate and vaccinated people will influence the "selected" mutations as much as unvaccinated people (if not more as there are now more of them).

And then we may be in trouble as to how to protect our vulnerable people if the mutations which emerge via adaptation to our vaccines are vaccine resistant.*"

One of the most sensible posts I have read on this topic recently. Completely agree with you.

So awful to see. Some parts of the US have really taken this to the extreme.

Yes. It seems unlikely to me that the way out of this pandemic is to keep on vaccinating more and more people with more and more vaccines that are not very good at preventing infection and transmission.

If the vaccines worked well there would be no need to vaccinate children (and call them "virus vectors").

[quote mathanxiety]@TinaYouFatLard, there is no proof and no indication that what you posted is true.

Your post is a fine example of the unreasonable and unfounded thinking of the anti vax cohort.

There is a high chance that unvaccinated groups allowed to spread covid - especially children - will result in more deaths from covid and virus mutation; an endless cycle of unnecessary death from covid and other diseases which hospitals can't deal with.

[/quote]
And without long term safety data there is no proof to the contrary either. Since when do we throw (even a few) children under the bus to protect the elderly?

And there absolutely is a proven link to myocarditis.

And I’m not anti-vax FFS!

Just to add that I think the whole "antivax" thing is really unhelpful. And also pretty meaningless.

I think it is an idiotic slur that is preventing sensible open minded pragmatic discussion from taking place.

Vaccines no doubt have their place but they are not the be all and end all of public health policy.

I'm really worried that we are already over using them and that vaccinating children / mandating vaccines will make things worse.

Story below is not US but Germany. A guy killed himself, wife and three kids. He left a note saying he had procured a fake vaccination certificate for his wife. His wife's employer had reportedly found out and the couple was afraid that they might be arrested and their children taken away. Collateral damage, I guess :-(
What the fuck is the world coming to, seriously.
www.euronews.com/2021/12/07/german-family-deaths-linked-to-fake-covid-certificate-says-prosecutor

Children are virus vectors? What a nasty thing to say. This is what people are turning into from all the Covid hysteria.

Jeez you are the one that's looking hysterical here. Like everyone hasn't known since long before covid that children liberally spread their germs around. It's not vile to point to it out ffs. Everyone that has ever had small children knows that you end up catching everything going from them. It really just makes you look silly to pretend that this is a new concept or in any way related to 'covid hysteria'.

[quote churchofthepoisonmind]Story below is not US but Germany. A guy killed himself, wife and three kids. He left a note saying he had procured a fake vaccination certificate for his wife. His wife's employer had reportedly found out and the couple was afraid that they might be arrested and their children taken away. Collateral damage, I guess :-(
What the fuck is the world coming to, seriously.
www.euronews.com/2021/12/07/german-family-deaths-linked-to-fake-covid-certificate-says-prosecutor[/quote]
So why on earth not just get vaccinated?

@heldinadream

Sounds good to me. I'm sure they will make adequate provision for those medically exempt. Indeed, if everyone else just got on with being vaccinated the medically exempt would be better protected, so everyone would be better off. I'd fully include the severely needle phobic as a medical exemption. Although I think we need to put the resources in to devise methods to help them properly. After all needle phobia is not the same as vaccine refusal.

Honestly I'm petrified of needles have passed out getting bloods done. Would just take the husband and make him hold me down if I thought I needed it to get it done. Will have to pin our son down he will hate me until we get Smyths then it will be forgotten

[quote churchofthepoisonmind]Story below is not US but Germany. A guy killed himself, wife and three kids. He left a note saying he had procured a fake vaccination certificate for his wife. His wife's employer had reportedly found out and the couple was afraid that they might be arrested and their children taken away. Collateral damage, I guess :-(
What the fuck is the world coming to, seriously.
www.euronews.com/2021/12/07/german-family-deaths-linked-to-fake-covid-certificate-says-prosecutor[/quote]
That is so sad, and such a tragic waste of life.

Children are virus vectors? What a nasty thing to say. This is what people are turning into from all the Covid hysteria.

Children do spread the disease - they don't tend to suffer badly themselves, but the people they pass it on to can suffer quite badly.

And as for hysteria - try being clinically extremely vulnerable. People are still housebound, and for some illnesses, such as blood cancers, the vaccine doesn't offer much protection. These people are housebound until the pandemic eases. So think before you condemn.

Children do spread the disease - they don't tend to suffer badly themselves, but the people they pass it on to can suffer quite badly.

It’s a good job that we’ve can vaccinate vulnerable people to reduce their risk of becoming seriously ill if children do pass the virus on to them then isn’t it?

@luinagreine

Children are virus vectors? What a nasty thing to say. This is what people are turning into from all the Covid hysteria.

Jeez you are the one that's looking hysterical here. Like everyone hasn't known since long before covid that children liberally spread their germs around. It's not vile to point to it out ffs. Everyone that has ever had small children knows that you end up catching everything going from them. It really just makes you look silly to pretend that this is a new concept or in any way related to 'covid hysteria'.

I am around kids and I've been fine throughout. I don't begrudge them their coughs, sneezes or stomach bugs. I don't call them virus vectors (this implies contempt in my view) and I would certainly not expect other people's kids to take a Covid vaccine that has limited or no benefit to them individually, to protect me.

Why are some adults still worried about Covid if they have been vaccinated and boosted? It is weak and cowardly. Treat adults' anxieties first.

@KaycePollard

Children are virus vectors? What a nasty thing to say. This is what people are turning into from all the Covid hysteria.

Children do spread the disease - they don't tend to suffer badly themselves, but the people they pass it on to can suffer quite badly.

And as for hysteria - try being clinically extremely vulnerable. People are still housebound, and for some illnesses, such as blood cancers, the vaccine doesn't offer much protection. These people are housebound until the pandemic eases. So think before you condemn.

That's not universally true. Some CEV people feel that they need to continue with their lives while taking precautions against Covid in the same way they typically would against any other virus. Shielding guidance has long ago been discontinued.

@KaycePollard

Children are virus vectors? What a nasty thing to say. This is what people are turning into from all the Covid hysteria.

Children do spread the disease - they don't tend to suffer badly themselves, but the people they pass it on to can suffer quite badly.

And as for hysteria - try being clinically extremely vulnerable. People are still housebound, and for some illnesses, such as blood cancers, the vaccine doesn't offer much protection. These people are housebound until the pandemic eases. So think before you condemn.

The vaccines that we have currently just aren't capable of keeping rates low enough to create covid-free enviroments for CEV people even with extremely high coverage. Look at the case rates in highly vaccinated Portugal and Ireland. Its an unfortunate fact that until we have better vaccines, community transmission will be high over the winter. CEV people may have to avoid certain enviroments for their safety when cases are high. Vaccinating young kids won't change this and its not like its a zero-risk endeavour to vaccinate them all.

@bumbleymummy

Children do spread the disease - they don't tend to suffer badly themselves, but the people they pass it on to can suffer quite badly.

It’s a good job that we’ve can vaccinate vulnerable people to reduce their risk of becoming seriously ill if children do pass the virus on to them then isn’t it?

Exactly. And this is where the vaccines can be useful. By protecting vulnerable people from severe disease.

We know now that they do not stop infection and transmission so there is no good reason to vaccinate everyone. We are not going to achieve overnight herd immunity with vaccines.

So let's keep the vaccines for protecting the vulnerable whilst accepting that the only way to go from pandemic to endemic is via a combination of natural immunity / vaccine protection / gradual natural virus mutation.

Sometimes less is more.

I don't call them virus vectors (this implies contempt in my view)

I think that is a you issue tbh. It's not contempt to point out that kids spread germs, phrasing it as virus vectors doesn't suddenly make it contemptuous.

Why are some adults still worried about Covid if they have been vaccinated and boosted? It is weak and cowardly. Treat adults' anxieties first.

It's weak and cowardly for adults to not be vaccinated and not wear masks. Humans are flawed, it isn't anything new.

Mummyford - but then they would benefit from lateral flow tests, but this thread suggests they are not going to continue?

Vaccine immunity wanes very rapidly. Are we really happy for kids to be getting boosters every few months? If not then what’s the point of a vaccine that wanes after 3 months or so?

It's weak and cowardly for adults to not be vaccinated and not wear masks.

Why? Sounds like they’re happy to take their risk with the virus. Why would you consider that ‘weak and cowardly’?

It’s illogical.
The adults and vulnerable are protected by their vaccines. Healthy children do not suffer ill effects from covid. Why is it necessary to vaccinate them?
People have lost their powers of thinking.

In the US, almost every state excludes children from school if they're not vaccinated against the usual childhood diseases

They don't though. It's extremely easy to get exemptions for those or avoid it altogether by sending them to private school. I know someone whose child has received zero vaccines and he goes to school without issue. I think my child's school asked when she started in first grade for her records, which I supplied, but nothing since then. Children have never been excluded from school, or anywhere, based on their vaccination status before.