Thoughts on mandatory vaccination?

[IllGetTheNextRound]

I'm a healthcare professional and I've heard from both colleagues and patients that vaccinations should be mandatory.

This to me is concerning for a few reasons. One of the main reasons is that I think as a public health policy this is really problematic because we are mandating a healthcare intervention on an individual level which takes away their autonomy. And what about children? Compared to many other countries our vaccination uptake is generally excellent. Indeed there is definitely room for improvement, but I worry that mandating this would deter people who otherwise would consider it.

Having said that I'm very pro vaccination and I want as many people to be vaccinated as possible. I have educated many patients and advocated for greater uptake of childhood vaccinations.

If you're passionate about one side of the debate I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[quote TomelettewithGreggs]Ursula von Leyen has suggested mandatory vaccinations now. Though I can only find a Daily Fail link. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10262737/Europe-Covid-Time-think-mandatory-vaccines-Ursula-von-der-Leyen-says.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline[/quote]
Ursula van der Leyen's statement (that EU member states need to consider mandatory vaccination) has now been reported widely across almost all media.

Of course, some member states have (in effect) already started to make vaccination compulsory. Greece, for example, has recently announced that any resident over the age of 60 who has not got a first jab by January 16 will be fined 100 euros each and every month until such time as they have been innoculated.

Utter madness.

Von der Leyen wants to have mandatory vaccination for a variant that is showing itself to be milder? With no evidence that the current vaccines won't work against it. Makes no sense. Total fearmongering and a disgrace.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59497462

Strongly against.

Strongly against it as compulsion is ineffective. I do feel there may be a case for making the unvaccinated pay any covid related hospitalisation costs as they are doing in Singapore although it is far easier to do this in a privatised system.

@MaxNormal

Your right to swing your arm ends when your fist hits my face. And your right to refuse a vaccine ends when that causes a spread of disease that negatively affects me

You are asking someone else to take a medical intervention, which is not risk free, to protect you. You have no right to ask that of anyone.

You are also not displaying a lot of confidence in your own vaccine.

I don't think vaccinated people are primarily worried about catching covid from unvaccinated people (they know the risk to them is very low).

I think the bigger risks are thought to be:

1. Lots of unvaccinated people get ill and are hospitalised, preventing others from receiving healthcare for things other than covid.
2. Restriction re-imposed due to rising cases, which may be unpopular, harmful or expensive.
3. Higher risk of mutation
4. People who are unable to be vaccinated remain at higher risk.

Pro mandatory vaccinations during pandemics, as a healthcare professional I am surprised you aren’t. Are you treating covid patients in the ICU? Would you tell Flatearthers that the Earth could be flat and it’s pro choice?

[quote Beachcomber]@custardcreme

What principle?

I don't understand.

Is the principle that a different vaccine has been mandated before for a different disease in a different context?

If so, I'm not sure that that is a principle as such. It is just a historical fact of limited relevance.[/quote]
The principle of the slippery slope.

The point of a slippery slope is that even if a policy is initially justified, it may lead to unjustified applications. Or that a policy that is justified temporarily remains in place permanently.

Concerns over slippery slopes aren't unwarranted. Clearly in some policy areas we have slid down a slippery slope. One obvious example in recent years has been the clampdown on rights as a part of the war on terror. But I don't think there hasn't been such a slide in medicine. If there haven't been mandates since smallpox, then there hasn't been a slippery slope in vaccines. In other areas, many harmful practices in the past have been ended - many countries had forced sterilisation, forced lobotomies, chemical castration for homosexuals. If there were a slippery slope, they would have been extended.

It would be interesting if people could say a bit more on where they worry vaccine mandate will lead.

@togfee

Pro mandatory vaccinations during pandemics, as a healthcare professional I am surprised you aren’t. Are you treating covid patients in the ICU? Would you tell Flatearthers that the Earth could be flat and it’s pro choice?

I haven't bothered to look at the flat earth cult. But I don't think flat earthers do anything dangerous as a consequence of their belief. As long as that's the case, yes, they can be allowed to believe the earth is flat!

@Kosmin

Well here is a simple concern that I have with regards to where a "slippery slope" could lead. It is that there will be a push for people who do not need to be vaccinated with covid vaccines to be coerced or mandated into having them.

For example covid recovered persons.

This is already happening.

Generally in medecine it is widely accepted that it is neither ethical nor good practice to administer unnecessary medecins. Zero risk does not exist so unnecessary drugs, vaccines, procedures, etc are considered unethical and in disregard of the risk benefit ratio principle. IMO mandatory covid vaccination also flouts the hippocratic oath.

So we are already sliding down the slippery slope.

And that's before we start talking about people losing their jobs if they refuse pharmaceuticals that they do not need.

I live in a country which has vaccine passports and it is becoming increasingly difficult for covid recovered people to live normal lives without accepting injections that they do not need.

There are plans in Greece to fine unvaccinated people whether they need the vaccine or not.

If covid vaccines become mandatory many millions of recovered people who do not need to be injected with them may be denied access to education, childcare, means of earning a living.

It is UNBELIEVABLE how close we are in some places to the above.

Things that we would never have accepted 3 years are already happening and the door is wide open for much more.

And the context that this is happening in is nothing like the context of smallpox. It is happening in the digital era where it is very easy to restrict people.

Personally I think requiring people to accept a 3rd (and probably more) injections in order to retain "acceptable" status is both on the cards and very problematic.

So even just on the above without discussing the vaccination of children or the bizarre controversy around prophylactic treatments I think we are already well on the slippery slope that you talk about.

I don't know what will potentially be next. More vaccines? A controversy over the volume of adverse events from covid injections?

These things are already in the pipeline.

I gladly had both Covid jabs but am now being told that boosters are a condition of my employment in the kitchen at a care home. I had bad reactions to both jabs so for me it is now a choice between having the boosters and risking illness and unpaid time off again, or risking my employment.

Mandatory vaccinations are completely unreasonable in my view.

A federal judge has blocked the vaccine mandate for health workers in the US.
www.reuters.com/legal/government/us-judge-blocks-vaccine-mandate-contractors-three-states-2021-11-30/

There’s such a danger when politics becomes integral in healthcare.

I don't know what will potentially be next. More vaccines?

I believe so, as the govt has just bought another 114 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna for the next two years.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-59501192

[quote CrunchyCarrot]I don't know what will potentially be next. More vaccines?

I believe so, as the govt has just bought another 114 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna for the next two years.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-59501192[/quote]
Are we switching wholesale to Pfizer/Moderna going forwards?

[quote WinterKit]@togfree I agree. But I’d also add to that : should pro-choice allow you to smoke and drink during pregnancy. If my personal belief was - “smoking is good for my baby”, should I be persuaded/or should it be insisted that my choice here is wrong. I would say a strong yes - because of the potential damage it could cause to another human, based on a poorly educated choice. So while I understand the argument for body autonomy and pro choice, and would usually agree - there comes a point where - if your body is causing harm to others because of a poorly educated choice - intervention is needed.
I don’t think mandatory vaccination or a new ‘thing’ - it’s been used in the past and is used in other countries to control the spread of disease.
Depending on how serious things get, I don’t think mandatory vaccination should be ruled out.[/quote]
But you can smoke snd drink during pregnancy. It’s not advised but no one is locking you up and preventing you from doing it.

Strongly against compulsion.

This is a disease with ca. 0.5% fatality rate - so a low fatality % to start with but a fatality rate hammered down still further because of an optional vaccine.

If this was the Black Death, I’m sure we would be nailing people in their houses. But it’s not.

Furthermore, you aren’t going to stop variants running through a global population of 8 billion anyway. Like bring on a hamster wheel.

London has unremarkable/steady hospitalisations & cases at the moment yet only 61% of over 12s are double jabbed.

[quote CrunchyCarrot]Von der Leyen wants to have mandatory vaccination for a variant that is showing itself to be milder? With no evidence that the current vaccines won't work against it. Makes no sense. Total fearmongering and a disgrace.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59497462[/quote]
Scientists say they cannot yet know for sure if Omicron will result in milder infections. It seems to have done in South Africa, but there the average age of the population, and of most of those infected, is much less than most first world population. There is not yet enough data to determine how the elderly in Europe will be affected.

As well as Austria and Greece, it is said that the new German Chancellor is considering mandating vaccinations.

Are we switching wholesale to Pfizer/Moderna going forwards?

Yes for booster jabs. According to JCVI, mRNA vaccines such as Pfizer and Moderna gave the strongest

booster response of 7 different alternatives trialled.

@Tiny2018

I gladly had both Covid jabs but am now being told that boosters are a condition of my employment in the kitchen at a care home. I had bad reactions to both jabs so for me it is now a choice between having the boosters and risking illness and unpaid time off again, or risking my employment.

Mandatory vaccinations are completely unreasonable in my view.

I'm really sorry to hear that.

This is a big concern I think too. People are being coerced or mandated into having additional injections when they reacted badly to previous ones. This is unacceptable.

@MummyPop00

Strongly against compulsion.

This is a disease with ca. 0.5% fatality rate - so a low fatality % to start with but a fatality rate hammered down still further because of an optional vaccine.

If this was the Black Death, I’m sure we would be nailing people in their houses. But it’s not.

Furthermore, you aren’t going to stop variants running through a global population of 8 billion anyway. Like bring on a hamster wheel.

London has unremarkable/steady hospitalisations & cases at the moment yet only 61% of over 12s are double jabbed.

I agree

[quote CrunchyCarrot]I don't know what will potentially be next. More vaccines?

I believe so, as the govt has just bought another 114 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna for the next two years.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-59501192[/quote]
Yes. I heard on the radio this morning that millions of doses have been bought. I also heard that some of those doses will be to target new variants.

Most people in the UK haven't had injection number 3 yet but they should definitely be expecting it not to be their last (if they wish to retain "acceptable" status).

Another thing on the "slippery slope". We are already seeing big divisions in society on who can do what and who can go where. We are also seeing disagreement, "othering", tribalism and the use of a lot of propaganda. We are also seeing yet more erosion to the freedom of the press (one of the pillars of democracy). I think we would be foolish to let our fear of the covid19 virus blinker us to these things.

So I think that we are already pretty far down the slippery slope and that if citizens accept mandatory vaccines it will make it extremely difficult to make any U-turns and we will be manifesting our compliance with a situation that is already unacceptable.

I live in France and there has been a big increase in the popularity of the far right in recent years. We are building up to a presidential election and I'm worried that the far right will politicize covid and divisons over covid to garner yet more support. Certainly all the candidates will be expected to have a clear position on both vaccine passports and mandatory vaccines.

"I'm strongly against it on the grounds of liberty and bodily autonomy. I've had two doses and then declined a booster because I'm not presently comfortable with mRNA vaccines. I'd consider a booster of a different type.

I look at it this way. If you think it should be mandatory because you think the vaccines are great and were delighted to get yours, you're failing to respect the fact that others have different views. You think they're wrong? Okay, but imagine another health intervention that the government and the majority of the population were happy with but you believed was potentially dangerous, or were phobic of, or really didn't want for any other reason. Should they be able to force you to have it? You don't have to agree with a belief to acknowledge that others feel strongly about it.

It doesn't matter whether you think they're completely wrong. It's still their choice to make about their own bodies. The idea of setting a precedent for disregarding that is quite frightening."
I also totally agree with this. I've not been quite right since I had both doses of the vaccine. (I am generally susceptible to side effects from all medications and have MS.) I don't think I will get the booster as i will be offered a different vaccine than what I had previously and I'm not sure how my body will cope with it.

[quote hamstersarse]@AliceA2021 You actually think you are one of the good ones don't you?[/quote]
What on earth are you on about? I said that I believe in vaccines and also believe in people's choice.

I also posted a factual comment about a website that shares stories of people who are anti vaccine who have died from covid. No particular comment but facts. This was reported and removed, some people don't like facts and whip through the threads in a frenzied emotion and report things they don't like. Sorry that you feel facts should be reported and removed, but facts are facts at the end of the day. If we removed emotion and concentrated on facts it would make things a little easier.