Thoughts on mandatory vaccination?

[IllGetTheNextRound]

I'm a healthcare professional and I've heard from both colleagues and patients that vaccinations should be mandatory.

This to me is concerning for a few reasons. One of the main reasons is that I think as a public health policy this is really problematic because we are mandating a healthcare intervention on an individual level which takes away their autonomy. And what about children? Compared to many other countries our vaccination uptake is generally excellent. Indeed there is definitely room for improvement, but I worry that mandating this would deter people who otherwise would consider it.

Having said that I'm very pro vaccination and I want as many people to be vaccinated as possible. I have educated many patients and advocated for greater uptake of childhood vaccinations.

If you're passionate about one side of the debate I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I'd support mandatory vaccination. Our health service is crumbling because too many idiots are not being vaccinated and taking up hospital beds.

They're not only harming themselves by not being vaccination, they are harming society.

@Skinnytailedsquirrel I'd support mandatory DIETS. Our health service is crumbling because too many idiots are overeating and taking up hospital beds.

They're not only harming themselves by not dieting, they are harming society.

[quote theworldsgonefeckingmad]@Skinnytailedsquirrel I'd support mandatory DIETS. Our health service is crumbling because too many idiots are overeating and taking up hospital beds.

They're not only harming themselves by not dieting, they are harming society.
[/quote]
Yes they are.

Ursula von Leyen has suggested mandatory vaccinations now. Though I can only find a Daily Fail link. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10262737/Europe-Covid-Time-think-mandatory-vaccines-Ursula-von-der-Leyen-says.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

@Bexxe I personally don't feel that those who are unvaccinated are a direct risk to myself as 1) I'm vaccinated so hopefully my chances of serious illness are reduced 2) vaccines don't eliminate transmission (although they do reduce it) so in theory I could well be infected by a vaccinated person too. The issue is more that the unvaccinated are disproportionately taking up spaces in wards/icu which is unfair to those who require treatment for other illnesses and that is what I (and many others) take umbrage with. I think that those who are unvaccinated feel the only direct risk is to themselves but they forget they have the indirect risk also of being 32x more likely to require hospitalisation which does affect others. Nevertheless, I don't believe in mandatory vaccines as it's a slippery slope.

@TomelettewithGreggs that escalated quickly.

Anyone in Scotland care to opine about whether Sturgeon would introduce this? I really doubt England will go down that route, I think Scotland actually could which is terrifying. I noticed in an address to parliament a week ago she referred to Austria being "forced" to take this measure because of the covid situation there and she certainly didn't condemn it. Perhaps even planting the seed to normalise it?

@Battenburg77 literally the same thought just crossed my mind.

We are lucky enough to be in a position to move but I know its not that easy for everyone.

@ollyollyoxenfree

I'm interested in who was excluded from the clinical trials because I have had covid and I have a child who has reacted badly from a vaccine in the past and who has also had covid and who has lots of allergies.

So it is important information for me to have - that I and my child are in subgroups which the vaccines were not tested on.

As you say we have a lot more data now and the VAERS data from the US about adverse events is very concerning.

It seems to me that the emerging picture is that the vaccines have a relatively low benefit versus a relatively high risk (compared to other vaccines). Especially for people like me and my child who have had covid.

I certainly hope that no government would consider the sledghammer policy of mandating vaccines for everyone, including people who have had covid and who do not wish to have a vaccine that has not been tested on their demographic and which may have little benefit for them!

And this :
Including people with previous immunity is also not helpful as it will artificially increase vaccine efficacy

Don't you think that considering how little is know about covid19 that it might have been a good idea to test the vaccines for safety in the massive population of people who have previous immunity??

[quote Fluffysocks88]@Bexxe I personally don't feel that those who are unvaccinated are a direct risk to myself as 1) I'm vaccinated so hopefully my chances of serious illness are reduced 2) vaccines don't eliminate transmission (although they do reduce it) so in theory I could well be infected by a vaccinated person too. The issue is more that the unvaccinated are disproportionately taking up spaces in wards/icu which is unfair to those who require treatment for other illnesses and that is what I (and many others) take umbrage with. I think that those who are unvaccinated feel the only direct risk is to themselves but they forget they have the indirect risk also of being 32x more likely to require hospitalisation which does affect others. Nevertheless, I don't believe in mandatory vaccines as it's a slippery slope.[/quote]
Do we actually have definitive figures for how many Covid suffers with no other condition are in hospital in ICU? I don’t think we do.

@Skinnytailedsquirrel

I'd support mandatory vaccination. Our health service is crumbling because too many idiots are not being vaccinated and taking up hospital beds.

They're not only harming themselves by not being vaccination, they are harming society.

This seems like such a simplistic, childlike view of the situation. Do you honestly think that the crisis within the health service is all down to 'idiots not being vaccinated' or do you think that 10 years of chronic underfunding & the complete shutdown of the NHS to routine cases during lockdown could also be playing a significant role? Why are people so keen to avoid laying the blame at the feet of the people in power who have caused so many of our issues in order to give the unvaccinated a good kicking instead? It honestly baffles me.

@MaxNormal

It gives me hope that she didn't extend vaccine passports last week. It makes me think that the SNP don't want to be/can't be too out of step with UK covid policy, maybe for political reasons? Which makes me think that they wouldn't be able to introduce it if Westminster doesn't. Could be totally wrong. It's a very worrying situation.

[quote Beachcomber]@ollyollyoxenfree

I'm interested in who was excluded from the clinical trials because I have had covid and I have a child who has reacted badly from a vaccine in the past and who has also had covid and who has lots of allergies.

So it is important information for me to have - that I and my child are in subgroups which the vaccines were not tested on.

As you say we have a lot more data now and the VAERS data from the US about adverse events is very concerning.

It seems to me that the emerging picture is that the vaccines have a relatively low benefit versus a relatively high risk (compared to other vaccines). Especially for people like me and my child who have had covid.

I certainly hope that no government would consider the sledghammer policy of mandating vaccines for everyone, including people who have had covid and who do not wish to have a vaccine that has not been tested on their demographic and which may have little benefit for them!

And this :
Including people with previous immunity is also not helpful as it will artificially increase vaccine efficacy

Don't you think that considering how little is know about covid19 that it might have been a good idea to test the vaccines for safety in the massive population of people who have previous immunity??[/quote]
You seemed to have ignored all of my reply that was relevant @Beachcomber

Well yes - you're not going to put people allergic to the vaccine in trials, nor is it ethical to trial on pregnant women. Including people with previous immunity is also not helpful as it will artificially increase vaccine efficacy (i.e., make it look better than it actually is). There's a logical reason as to why all the groups listed were not included.

Fortunately, we have now rolled out billions of doses, thus gathering data on most of these people.

I'm not sure really sure what they are trying to prove with that statement - trials happened a long time ago and the evidence has moved on from then.

We have data on these groups now - this includes specific data on efficacy of vaccines in cohorts of people with a previous infection.

No matter how hard the anti-vaccine groups try to push it, there is not increased risk of being vaccinated because you have had coronavirus.

I think people who haven’t been vaccinated (except if they have a medical reason) are thickos but I don’t think it should be compulsory.. I’d like to see more venues such as the cinemas and restaurants requiring a covid pass.

@Battenburg77 it's awful. I said on another thread that I've gone from worrying about not being able to travel, to just hoping I don't get fined or imprisoned.

@CrimbleCrumble1

I think people who haven’t been vaccinated (except if they have a medical reason) are thickos but I don’t think it should be compulsory.. I’d like to see more venues such as the cinemas and restaurants requiring a covid pass.

Genuinely curious to know why you think this would be a good idea?Countries such as Scotland seem to have achieved nothing good from this when you look at their high transmission rates and have instead inflicted further harm on their already battered hospitality industry. If you want to reduce rates then testing for everyone would arguably be a more sensible plan. The sole benefit of vaccine passports is to punish or coerce, neither of which have anyplace in an ethical or democratic society.

@MaxNormal

I haven't felt well mentally since the news about Austria. It's absolutely criminal. I'm amazed that anyone could support it (not on here but seen a lot of support on twitter, including from Germany/Austria), knowing that the mandate will extend to whatever boosters are recommended. They could even be brand new vaccines. Are people really so desperate to stick the boot in to "anti-vaxxers" that they are happy to forfeit their own bodily autonomy? I can't believe that people are now mocking "muh bODily auTonomy" in the same way that they were mocking "muh freedom" a few months ago. Insanity.

Fuck me, I never thought I'd hear myself say thank fuck we left the EU......

[quote Battenburg77]@MaxNormal

I haven't felt well mentally since the news about Austria. It's absolutely criminal. I'm amazed that anyone could support it (not on here but seen a lot of support on twitter, including from Germany/Austria), knowing that the mandate will extend to whatever boosters are recommended. They could even be brand new vaccines. Are people really so desperate to stick the boot in to "anti-vaxxers" that they are happy to forfeit their own bodily autonomy? I can't believe that people are now mocking "muh bODily auTonomy" in the same way that they were mocking "muh freedom" a few months ago. Insanity.[/quote]
Ah yes the classic I don’t agree with your point of view so therefore you are thick/uneducated (oh the irony).

I understand how you are currently feeling in regard to the situation in Austria. Ditto.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Fuck me, I never thought I'd hear myself say thank fuck we left the EU......

Literally was I was just thinking.

[quote MaxNormal]@Battenburg77 it's awful. I said on another thread that I've gone from worrying about not being able to travel, to just hoping I don't get fined or imprisoned.[/quote]
I agree. If they fine or imprison me then I will fight it all the way though. I am an extremely law-abiding person and have never deliberately caused harm to anyone in my life, but if they introduce something to the UK that threatens our civil liberties in this way then I will stand up and do all I can to stop it for my children's sake. It's not a world that I want them to have to grow up in.

I’m surprised about how many of my previously very pro vaxx friends are confessing they don’t want the booster over the last week. They’ll tell me because I’m ‘safe’ to say it to! They might not air this view in other quarters,

A more sensible option would be for low risk people to do an antibody test to see if they actually need it. Taking medicine you don’t need goes against most people’s

I think the Austrian thing has really jarred with a lot of people and it’s filtering into how they view the whole thing. Feeling completely powerless is not something most people are prepared to put up with.

I didn't ignore it ollyollyoxenfree.

I said that the data emerging from VAERS in the US on adverse advents is very concerning.

So yes, millions of does have been given and we have (imperfect but interesting) data on that. We also have emerging data on vaccine waning, breakthrough infections and virus mutation. None of this data indicates that mandatory vaccination is justified. Far from it.

Hi @TheElvishQueen, I'm not sure if there is any data on those in ICU with no underlying conditions. I will have a look, although to be honest it's not really relevant whether there are underlying conditions or not in this debate as it is categorically the unvaccinated who are mostly taking up beds. I do appreciate many of those who are unvaccinated have genuine concerns about getting the vaccine and I don't feel it's my place (or anyones) to belittle/scorn those who make that choice. But the reality is, it really is a public health issue. In saying that, the NHS has been overrun for years and I do feel covid is being politicalised and used as a scapegoat when the hospitals aren't coping. But equally, surely it makes sense to try and mitigate risks of serious illness if possible so not to unnecessarily take up a bed.

I'm not in favour of mandatory vaccination aka fine if you are not, but I'm quite in favour of vaccine passports and no entry to venues without vaccination. A subtle difference but it means that you can only go to boring places like food shopping and the pharmacy unless you are vaccinated or under 12(5 if kids are vaccinated). The list of banned places can be tweaked of course, I would start with places with entrances fees and hospitality