Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[whywouldntyou]

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

@TomelettewithGreggs

It's truly amazing. Asking for evidence that an unvaxxed man would not have died when there is an immense amount of evidence on a population level that vaccines work. Imagining that you know more than the entire scientific community. Arguing that the NHS is not struggling because of covid when hundreds of doctors are confirming that it is. A sort of wide eyed disengenousness "I am only repeating what X told me" ignoring the stream of news reports saying otherwise.

Antivaxxers.

Ot really, that was put up saying it was an unnecessary death, implying if he had been vaccinated it wouldn't have happened. But there's no proof at all that that is the case. Vaccinated people die. Unvaccinated people die. Nobody can say for sure they would've had a different outcome if they did or didn't take the jab.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

The jab is to protect yourself from possibly getting a more severe illness. It's not to protect anyone else. Jabbed still catch pass and die from covid. Look at Israel. Gibraltar.

This stood out for me @Bluepinkyellowcakes.

If we start from a point of acknowledging that data shows the vaccination reduces transmission, in turn severe illness and death, and the likelihood of more dangerous mutations, isn't vaccination about the good of the population? You are right in thinking Covid is unlikely to affect you badly, but you will be infectious before you show symptoms so it's quite possible you will pass the infection on through no fault of your own.

I have a dear friend who, like you, is not old, not overweight, doesn't drink or smoke. She does, however, have blood cancer and whilst she's had all her vaccinations, the likelihood is that will not give her much protection. The reality is Covid is likely to make her seriously ill or worse. She is effectively still in full lockdown. I fit your criteria for someone who is likely to have Covid mildly (although so does my 19 year who is still recovering from Covid in June) but I had my vaccination for people like my dear friend and many like her in the hospice where I work.

I respect your right to make up your own mind, but genuinely wonder if you have thought of the wider picture before coming to your decision?

@Dishhh

*@Bluepinkyellowcakes*

And where is the evidence that if he had had the jabs he would have survived?

I'm sorry - this is bonkers. He had Covid. He died of Covid. If he'd had his vaccinations for Covid, that might have ... stopped that happening?

Might, might not.

@JSL52 no, I'm not thick, but you are rude.
And you're not "front line" unless you mean you're in the army and I've misunderstood?

As a baby yes I was given jabs, not my choice since I couldn't talk. I gave my own children their jabs too even though they could talk. Because the illnesses they protect against posed a risk to them that in my mind warranted a vaccine.
Covid on the other hand poses a very small risk so I don't need a vaccine. Neither do my children.

I have an anti vax relative (not just Covid all vax - although this is a little hypocritical as that's for their kids as they were fully vaccinated a child) and also denies that Covid exists, masks are an affront to their human rights etc
I suspect would never accept they ever got Covid and wouldn't tell anyone if they were ill. When their kids were exceptionally ill with a preventable childhood illness we only found out because one nearly died - apparently they recovered because they had a good diet and nature (no word about the unnecessary and horrible suffering that was entirely preventable)
They are extremely stubborn, "always right" and everything is "someone else's fault"
I don't think even being on their deathbed they would accept that they might not be right in their beliefs.
We try not to talk to them about many subjects as it causes rows especially as my DH is a hospital consultant so is more than a little at odds with their belief.

@dwightShrutesgirlfriend yes I do consider the wider population, I practice good hygiene and if I'm unwell I avoid people where possible. I am apparently as an unvaxxed person more likely to suffer symptoms and so I'd stay home. Vaxxed people could spread it because they don't realise they are infected so they will continue going out.

It doesn't seem to cut transmission that much, there are so many people just on here never mind in "real life" who are jabbed but positive, and it spreads around their households.

These are the facts:

The picture in each country also depends on the restrictions in situ i.e. social distancing, masks, travel restrictions.

Those who have fared better had more restrictions, earlier vaccination programs, and better coverage.

Israel: deaths per million population 878
Israel: vaccination doses per 100 people: 174
Israel: vaccination coverage: 62.1%
medium vaccination uptake, high restrictions

UK: deaths per million population 2117
UK: vaccination doses per 100 people: 168
UK: vaccination coverage: 67.9%
medium vaccination uptake, no restrictions

UAE: deaths per million population 213
UAE: vaccination doses per 100 people: 168
UAE: vaccination coverage: 84.4%
high vaccination uptake, very strong restrictions

Peru: deaths per million population 5982
Peru: vaccination doses per 100 people: 123
Peru: vaccination coverage: 54%
low vaccination uptake, few restrictions

You reap what you sow.

I haven't had the jab and don't plan to. I couldn't care less if people do or don't. It's no one else's business. What I have seen is some pretty shocking attitudes from usually free-thinking lefties, towards those who haven't been jabbed. Mostly on Facebook. Their behaviour and attitude has been pretty disgusting.

[quote Bluepinkyellowcakes]@dwightShrutesgirlfriend yes I do consider the wider population, I practice good hygiene and if I'm unwell I avoid people where possible. I am apparently as an unvaxxed person more likely to suffer symptoms and so I'd stay home. Vaxxed people could spread it because they don't realise they are infected so they will continue going out.

It doesn't seem to cut transmission that much, there are so many people just on here never mind in "real life" who are jabbed but positive, and it spreads around their households.[/quote]
@Bluepinkyellowcakes but do you understand you will be infectious before you have symptoms and 'can avoid people'. Also true for vaxxed people, but, realistically, vaxxed people are less likely to have the infection in the first place, still possible, but less likely because that's how vaccinations work.

Genuinely, if everyone took your view of only considering the risk to themselves, do you think we should just take the deaths of people like my friend as sad but inevitable or do you think we should make decisions for the good of the population as a whole?

I had covid in mid July and still can't taste or smell properly at all and have fatigue, chest pains etc.
I've put off having the vaccine as I am scared it will make me feel even worse or trigger off some immune response that makes me feel ill and need time off work.
I believe I still have antibodies and will have immunity.
Once im fully recovered I will have the vaccines

I haven't had the vaccination for all the reasons stated by others on this thread.

My son currently has Covid. Thankfully it's no worse than a heavy cold right now (day 5). I fully accept that I may come down with it too.

@Dwightshrutesgirlfriend yes, I accept that people can be infectious before symptoms and so spread unknowingly.

As for your other question, then yes I think we should consider the greater good in so far as practicing good hygiene, staying away from others when we are unwell and taking care of our own health as much as we can. Sometimes that won't be enough to prevent all deaths, and sadly some people will die. Those people could well be people I love and care about, could be me.
I don't think that we should enforce vaccines to cut that small risk even smaller. Where does it end if we do that? Same for flu? Same for cars, in case of accidents, same for sports? Life does come with risks and we can't prevent them all. Even if everybody, absolutely everybody was jabbed there would still be some people who die. And that's really upsetting for their loved ones and I absolutely do have empathy, but that is life. With life comes death.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

The NHS staff are doing their jobs. Jobs they chose, that they are paid to do.

With regards to your posts on this particular subject, there are no words to fully describe the level of your total and utter selfish privilege.

GodIsAVegan
"I think people are pretty selfish actually. They get vaccinated to protect themselves, maybe their family and because they want their life to go back to normal. If people sincerely gave a fuck about others, more people would help others, give more to charity, volunteer, look after other aspects of their health, give blood, not bully/mock others on social media, etc."

Exactly

I saw very little evidence of all of this altruism pre covid and I don't see it now in relation to anything else.

You have a problem with facts?

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

You have a problem with facts?

Sorry, that's for @Furries

[quote Bluepinkyellowcakes]@Dwightshrutesgirlfriend yes, I accept that people can be infectious before symptoms and so spread unknowingly.

As for your other question, then yes I think we should consider the greater good in so far as practicing good hygiene, staying away from others when we are unwell and taking care of our own health as much as we can. Sometimes that won't be enough to prevent all deaths, and sadly some people will die. Those people could well be people I love and care about, could be me.
I don't think that we should enforce vaccines to cut that small risk even smaller. Where does it end if we do that? Same for flu? Same for cars, in case of accidents, same for sports? Life does come with risks and we can't prevent them all. Even if everybody, absolutely everybody was jabbed there would still be some people who die. And that's really upsetting for their loved ones and I absolutely do have empathy, but that is life. With life comes death.[/quote]
I hear you. But I’d rather we had a vaccination programme and mourned the people that still die, as opposed to everyone saying no to a vaccination and we would be mourning many, many more people.

I’m not even trying to change your mind. I’m just really interested in what vaccination refusers think the situation would be if we’d all taken the same stance. I don’t think anyone can deny the statistics that prove that vaccination has greatly reduced the number of deaths. That is a good enough reason for me to have a vaccination.

@Dwightshrutesgirlfriend thank you for that, for not jumping on me because of my answer. I tried to answer as respectfully as possible while still keeping true to what I believe. I genuinely do feel for people who die from this and for their loved ones, but I really don't believe that vaccinating will prevent all deaths, or even very many more than currently. So many people still pass covid when they are jabbed, its not going to disappear. And so people, a few unfortunate people, will still die.

@Mummyford I don't know anyone with long covid. I know lots of people have suffered post virally from other viruses for years and I assume long covid is similar, but hands up I don't know that. You asked my views and I answer as I answer everything I've been asked honestly.
I don't know much about it at all, but anecdotally most people seem to recover completely from covid, some do appear to suffer longer term and then recover and I've also read that some continue to face problems. But that's purely anecdotes.

I find this topic really brings out the worst in people, especially on here.

I completely accept that some, many, people feel safer if they are vaccinated. I don't know a single vaccinated person in RL who did it in effect for the greater good as is the line so oft spouted on MN. Those who I know have been vaccinated did it because either they are 60+, have a health condition which means they are at greater risk (and both those groups always without fail also have the annual flu vaccine too) or are younger and, like my DS, had the vaccine so they can travel abroad and attend concerts.

That is their choice. I'm not saying they are wrong, just that my choice is different. I don't think that bullying or insulting people about their decision to vaccinate or not is in any way appropriate, neither is seeking to coerce unvaccinated posters to change their mind.

As I said upthread, I am no real risk to anyone, as I WFH and the only time I go out is to shops and supermarket once a week where (as from tomorrow) I will be wearing a mask and keeping well away from people as I have been since all this started.

Except its not drivel.

And I've not resorted to nastiness anywhere, there is no need.

I present my opinions, my reasons, and some facts. If you don't like that then that's not my problem. If I'd posted lies and name called it would be my problem, I'd have to take a good look at myself and question why I thought it acceptable to do that. But I didn't, so I don't

Furries

Do you really think that this is an acceptable way to talk to someone?

You may not agree with the opinions and choices of the poster but at no time have they been anything other than respectful in their language.

The fact that you claim to have empathy is laughable

@ktel1

Furries

Do you really think that this is an acceptable way to talk to someone?

You may not agree with the opinions and choices of the poster but at no time have they been anything other than respectful in their language.

The fact that you claim to have empathy is laughable

Just because someone may be “polite” doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be called out for posting shite. And you’re right, for people like that i don’t display any empathy.

HTH