Will the Government actually follow through on their threat to sack NHS staff?

[DontWantTheRivalry]

I work in a very large city hospital, we are also a specialist trauma centre with Helipad access (just to give you an idea of how large a hospital it is).

I found out yesterday that almost 13% of the medical staff are unvaccinated.

Surely that number of staff can’t just be fired? How do they expect a hospital to function with such a mass exodus whilst already dealing with staff shortages in nearly every department.

It’s very worrying.

Hopefully they will follow through.
It will get rid of some of the more dubious members of staff who are unable to formulate proper de ent clinical opinions.
There are very few unvaccinated doctors, most of the unvaccinated staff are lower levels and easier to replace.

Anyone over 55 can just retire, I retired because I didn't want to wfh, so I imagine it would be very easy to decide to retire because of the vaccine.

I work in the NHS ( ICU Red Zone ) and I don’t know anybody who hasn’t been vaccinated but I suspect those who refuse will be redeployed elsewhere.

@Heyvedge

Anyone over 55 can just retire, I retired because I didn't want to wfh, so I imagine it would be very easy to decide to retire because of the vaccine.

Oh you can retire at any age of course

I just meant, I think if you know there's an income coming soon, the third vaccine is even more likely to be a last straw. She was very pleased to receive her first so she's changed a lot.

@KittenCatcher

Oh right, we refer to doctors as medical staff, nurses as nursing staff, physios and ot as therapy staff, pharmacists as pharmacy staff etc. Maybe different trusts are different. How did you get this info.

I think the OP's terminology is unusual. Every Trust I've worked at would use the term "medical staff" to indicate doctors only, nurses would not be included.

"Clinical staff" is the catch all term that includes doctors, nurses, AHPs etc.

I just can’t imagine it happening.

I will be absolutely horrified if it goes ahead.

The worst thing is that all these ‘dangerous staff’ will have to work through the atrocity that will be the winter period, and then when things start to calm down in the Spring they’ll be fired. It’s disgusting.

As awkward as the ‘clap for carers’ was, it’s horrendous how quickly the NHS staff who worked at the peak of the pandemic and were reigned as heroes are now being coerced out of their jobs.

I honestly can’t believe that anyone thinks this is ok.

Thankfully, all of the medical staff I work with think the concept is abhorrent too - and I’m sure a part of that is that we are seeing first hand what dangerous situations we are already working in due to understaffing and we are pretty terrified about what dangers lie ahead of huge numbers of the work force are pushed out.

It’s going to be a shit show and I like to think that the Government are secretly shitting themselves because they feel like they can’t back down, but they also know the huge damage it will cause the NHS and the patients when huge numbers of staff are made to leave.

Surely that number of staff can’t just be fired? How do they expect a hospital to function with such a mass exodus whilst already dealing with staff shortages in nearly every department.

It’s very worrying.

I think you are worrying about the wrong thing. Worry about why 13% of your medical staff are thick enough to think that they are statistically taking less of a risk by refusing the vaccine than by getting it. I'd be questioning whether I'd want to be treated in a hospital where over 10% of the HCPs were that stupid.

There are other vaccines that are mandatory for frontline clinicians - this isn't the only one. Why do you feel this is different?

Tbh, if I thought that 13% figure was real, I'd be horrified that that percentage of clinical staff were apparently unable to assess clinical risk against benefits.

As it is, I think it's unlikely the OH nurse you chatted to had all the facts to hand.

@NdujaWannaDance

Surely that number of staff can’t just be fired? How do they expect a hospital to function with such a mass exodus whilst already dealing with staff shortages in nearly every department.

It’s very worrying.

I think you are worrying about the wrong thing. Worry about why 13% of your medical staff are thick enough to think that they are statistically taking less of a risk by refusing the vaccine than by getting it. I'd be questioning whether I'd want to be treated in a hospital where over 10% of the HCPs were that stupid.

But you won't get treated at all then

Maybe this doesn't worry you but with chronic underlying conditions, I want staff. Call me selfish 🤷🏻‍♀️

@NdujaWannaDance

Surely that number of staff can’t just be fired? How do they expect a hospital to function with such a mass exodus whilst already dealing with staff shortages in nearly every department.

It’s very worrying.

I think you are worrying about the wrong thing. Worry about why 13% of your medical staff are thick enough to think that they are statistically taking less of a risk by refusing the vaccine than by getting it. I'd be questioning whether I'd want to be treated in a hospital where over 10% of the HCPs were that stupid.

But none of that is going to provide the clinical staff we need to ensure the NHS functions, it's not going to replace the staff who will leave or plug the gaps, no matter how 'thick' others think they are. If it happens then it happens, but where's the plan to deal with the fall out? They've not done anything useful around social care regarding recruitment and retention of staff, it's just being left to sink.

I think you just get Nicky Morgan to re-count the nursing staff and that’s how you get the numbers up. I can’t find the videoclip but I hope you remember the debacle.

I'm sure the deadline will be extended. The country will literally collapse if we lose c.10% of frontline medical staff.

I see it as no different to the need to have hepB vaccination if doing exposure prone procedures. If you don’t want to have it then find alternative employment.

I think you are worrying about the wrong thing. Worry about why 13% of your medical staff are thick enough to think that they are statistically taking less of a risk by refusing the vaccine than by getting it. I'd be questioning whether I'd want to be treated in a hospital where over 10% of the HCPs were that stupid

Aren’t you pleasant.

I’d pick stupidity as a character straight over nastiness any day.

But none of that is going to provide the clinical staff we need to ensure the NHS functions, it's not going to replace the staff who will leave or plug the gaps, no matter how 'thick' others think they are.
If it happens then it happens, but where's the plan to deal with the fall out? They've not done anything useful around social care regarding recruitment and retention of staff, it's just being left to sink.

Exactly.

I doubt those wielding their pitchforks at the ‘stupid NHS staff’ have even considered the considerable damage it will cause.

@Gassylady

I see it as no different to the need to have hepB vaccination if doing exposure prone procedures. If you don’t want to have it then find alternative employment.

I don't disagree in principle, but if numbers are really this high, how does the NHS function once they've gone?

@Gassylady

I see it as no different to the need to have hepB vaccination if doing exposure prone procedures. If you don’t want to have it then find alternative employment.

I absolutely agree. We’ve just had to give our status of Covid, MMR, polio, hep B and tetanus again. I have no problem with it, I want to protect my patients, myself and my family.

@Glinsk

Perhaps they could be redeployed to the covid ward. That might focus a few minds.

Exactly.

Perhaps they could be redeployed to the covid ward. That might focus a few minds.

Yeah…..because I’m sure an unvaccinated midwife is well equipped to provide safe care in a Covid unit with ventilated patients

Some posts on here are just ridiculous.

It’s like the seriousness of what’s happening is just being completely dismissed.

Ive been vaccinated but how do they know if you haven’t been vaccinated? They did go round a few months ago asking for this info and you ticked a box - but individuals could lie?

@doublemonkey

Lot's of us don't want to have the vaccine. We should be able to make informed choices about what we put in our bodies.

You're a clinician @doublemonkey?

You have a choice about whether you want to get vaccinated, but equally healthcare trusts have a choice as to whether want the increased risk of unvaccinated staff.

Relevant immuninisations is a caveat of working in a healthcare role, outlined by the GMC.

It’s like the seriousness of what’s happening is just being completely dismissed.

Yes it is, by those who think they have a right to be both unvaccinated during a pandemic and supply medical care at the same time.

@DontWantTheRivalry

I just can’t imagine it happening.

I will be absolutely horrified if it goes ahead.

The worst thing is that all these ‘dangerous staff’ will have to work through the atrocity that will be the winter period, and then when things start to calm down in the Spring they’ll be fired. It’s disgusting.

As awkward as the ‘clap for carers’ was, it’s horrendous how quickly the NHS staff who worked at the peak of the pandemic and were reigned as heroes are now being coerced out of their jobs.

I honestly can’t believe that anyone thinks this is ok.

Thankfully, all of the medical staff I work with think the concept is abhorrent too - and I’m sure a part of that is that we are seeing first hand what dangerous situations we are already working in due to understaffing and we are pretty terrified about what dangers lie ahead of huge numbers of the work force are pushed out.

It’s going to be a shit show and I like to think that the Government are secretly shitting themselves because they feel like they can’t back down, but they also know the huge damage it will cause the NHS and the patients when huge numbers of staff are made to leave.

No one is referring to unvaccinated people as "dangerous"

It's just another risk reduction measure. There will be less transmission if all healthcare staff are vaccinated.

The deadline is not for a long while yet, hopefully more of that 13% will decide to go ahead.

OP "It’s like the seriousness of what’s happening is just being completely dismissed."

I don't do media so I don't know what they have been like.

But I think if you are a healthy person, maybe especially young healthy, the impact on healthcare just doesn't occur to people, maybe they don't need a doctor or nurse very often.

The same people will then be stunned when the A&E wait is 6 hours on a quiet summer day because they never thought about the impact of this. And then decide extra tax is the answer 🤦🏽‍♀️

@NdujaWannaDance

Surely that number of staff can’t just be fired? How do they expect a hospital to function with such a mass exodus whilst already dealing with staff shortages in nearly every department.

It’s very worrying.

I think you are worrying about the wrong thing. Worry about why 13% of your medical staff are thick enough to think that they are statistically taking less of a risk by refusing the vaccine than by getting it. I'd be questioning whether I'd want to be treated in a hospital where over 10% of the HCPs were that stupid.

That's irrelevant to the problem of future staffing though.