Will the Government actually follow through on their threat to sack NHS staff?

[DontWantTheRivalry]

I work in a very large city hospital, we are also a specialist trauma centre with Helipad access (just to give you an idea of how large a hospital it is).

I found out yesterday that almost 13% of the medical staff are unvaccinated.

Surely that number of staff can’t just be fired? How do they expect a hospital to function with such a mass exodus whilst already dealing with staff shortages in nearly every department.

It’s very worrying.

It would be virtually impossible to blame one nurse for giving a patient covid, a patient could catch it from anyone including other patients or visitors .

@KittenCatcher

It would be virtually impossible to blame one nurse for giving a patient covid, a patient could catch it from anyone including other patients or visitors .

Anyone can catch it from anyone. Vaccination reduces transmission but doesn’t stop it completely.

@KittenCatcher
Maybe if staff are happy to accept a financial bonus for having a vacinne then they didnt really have a very good reason for not having it in the first place. Some people may see that as bribery.

I agree they probably don't have good reason for being unvaccinated, but I think it may be worth paying vaccinated people if that increases uptake.
Bribery usually refers to paying someone to do the wrong thing (something which is illegal, or at least against the interests of the organisation). For example, bribing a judge or jury to change their verdict/sentence. Or bribing an employee/politician to reject the best offer/contract costing the company/government.
I don't think it's possible to bribe someone to do the right thing, e.g. get vaccinated.

I don't think the payments for getting vaccinated would be a problem, as the government wanted to make payments to stimulate the economy (they did so by cutting taxes like SDLT and VAT, subsidising things, like furlough, help out to eat out, and increasing benefits). I think a sensible policy would have been to announce significant payments for people who complied with covid measures and got vaccinated. For example, something like a payment according to a formula based on age (decreasing with age so that 18 year olds receive the full payment and pensioners receive nothing), paid to all working age adults (children would receive it when they reached adulthood). My reasoning is that older people don't need an incentive to get vaccinated - they benefit by reducing the probability they die or get seriously ill. The younger a person is, the more harm they endure by complying with covid and the less benefit they receive directly.
Of course it would have been difficult to announce such a policy in early 2020 when it was unclear if or when a vaccine would become available.

Another possibility would be automatic appointments for vaccinations for NHS staff (again, this could apply to other groups as well). Everyone has the right to not get vaccinated, but they could be required to attend the appointment and either get vaccinated or state their reasons for not being vaccinated and then listen to the counter-arguments. Maybe some who were hesitant would just choose to get vaccinated. It also might be useful for the government to collect data on why others aren't getting vaccinated. And others might give their reason, but then end up being persuaded.

The thing is, on the flip side, the NHS can’t cope with the staffing shortages when all these unvaccinated staff have to keep isolating.
Best just get them out of the picture.

Perhaps they could be redeployed to the covid ward. That might focus a few minds.

Why do people continuely use the above claptrap well you ought to go and work on a covid ward, it's similar to if you don't like wearing a mask you won't like being on ventilator. The statements don't even make sense.

13% of your clinical staff (them that’s the correct terminology for what you meant by the way) shameful!
Dh is a Consultant and doesn’t know a single member of clinical staff in our two large busy hospitals who hasn’t been vaccinated. He knows an awful lot as he’s worked there 15 years. He’s all for the mandate. As he says he would worry about the clinical decision making of a hcp who didn’t understand the importance of getting the vaccine.

@Glinsk

Perhaps they could be redeployed to the covid ward. That might focus a few minds.

Is that where the bad people have to go and work, to focus their minds

@MissyB1
13% of your clinical staff (them that’s the correct terminology for what you meant by the way) shameful!
Dh is a Consultant and doesn’t know a single member of clinical staff in our two large busy hospitals who hasn’t been vaccinated. He knows an awful lot as he’s worked there 15 years. He’s all for the mandate. As he says he would worry about the clinical decision making of a hcp who didn’t understand the importance of getting the vaccine.

13% does seem very high. Obviously it can vary by hospital/trust/role. The average is less than this though (I think 7% currently).

But I suppose there are shy hesitant or shy anti-vaxxers - people who don't admit they are unvaccinated and perhaps outright lie about it. Maybe your husband knows some in this category.

is that where the bad people have to go to focus their minds

No just the Covid deniers.

@KittenCatcher

It would be virtually impossible to blame one nurse for giving a patient covid, a patient could catch it from anyone including other patients or visitors .

It isn't about ascribing blame to anyone individually.

Vaccination reduces transmission. The less transission, the less overall risk to patients.

Maybe your husband knows some in this category.

Looking at his opinions I can see why people wouldn't be totally truthful with him.

@MissyB1

is that where the bad people have to go to focus their minds

No just the Covid deniers.

So the punishment block then, why would anyone pay all that to get a degree then have to work in there, there must be some that are jabbed that have to work there as well

@Againstmachine

Maybe your husband knows some in this category.

Looking at his opinions I can see why people wouldn't be totally truthful with him.

His opinion that being professional is part of the job? And that understanding basic science is pretty vital for the job? Actually all his colleagues have the same opinion. Clinical staff on the whole are intelligent professional people who know that sometimes they just have to do the right thing for the greater good.

And bring dishonest about vaccination status would be nothing to be proud of. Perhaps anti vaxxers should have the courage of their convictions?

@doublemonkey

Lot's of us don't want to have the vaccine. We should be able to make informed choices about what we put in our bodies.

And you can. Just as an employer can state specific terms and conditions for employment.

There is still a choice here even if you don't like the conditions of that choice.

We have just been through this in New Zealand.

Staff were either redeployed or let go. Many of the health workers and education staff were in support roles and could transfer to wfh positions. Others have been let go but are welcome back if they choose to be vaccinated.

@50ShadesOfCatholic

We have just been through this in New Zealand.

Staff were either redeployed or let go. Many of the health workers and education staff were in support roles and could transfer to wfh positions. Others have been let go but are welcome back if they choose to be vaccinated.

Yep that’s fair enough.

His opinion that being professional is part of the job? And that understanding basic science is pretty vital for the job? Actually all his colleagues have the same opinion. Clinical staff on the whole are intelligent professional people who know that sometimes they just have to do the right thing for the greater good.

No he has basically called people idiots and all for the mandate so they probably wouldn't tell him the truth, I don't see why you can't see why people might not be truthful with him, and he seems to not like other people having different opinions.

At hospital wher I work it's about 10% it's a lot of people to lose.

There won't be many places for unvaccinated staff to go within healthcare.

I rent a clinic space at a private hospital, as soon as the vaccine rollout went to health care staff I was asked to send proof of vaccination as soon as I had it.

The stopped unvaccinated staff at the hospital months ago.

Another possibility would be automatic appointments for vaccinations for NHS staff (again, this could apply to other groups as well). Everyone has the right to not get vaccinated, but they could be required to attend the appointment and either get vaccinated or state their reasons for not being vaccinated and then listen to the counter-arguments. Maybe some who were hesitant would just choose to get vaccinated.

Actually think this would be a great idea as some sort of compromise to mandatory vaccination.

Lots of work out there (specifically with care staff) showing that when individuals have their concerns listened to, and have misinformation cleared up, they often change their mind about not wanting to be vaccinated

Lots of work out there (specifically with care staff) showing that when individuals have their concerns listened to, and have misinformation cleared up, they often change their mind about not wanting to be vaccinated

Exactly right talk to people and listen to Thier concerns, but people on here just prefer to throw insults about calling people idiots and anti vaxxers when they have only not had one vaccine.

I have to say, I’m having real trouble believing that OP is actually a clinician.

She doesn’t know that “medical staff” means doctors and “clinical staff” is the collective term for doctors, nurses and AHPs.

She doesn’t know that covid wards do not contain ventilated patients (they would be on ICU).

She thinks it is fine and dandy for unvaccinated staff to be looking after CEV patients in hospital. This is what convinces me she can’t be a hospital clinician.

10% of our dialysis patients died from Covid in the first wave. These were outpatients, mostly aged 40-60, and would in no sense “have died anyway”. More died in the second and third waves, but fewer because by that point we and they had all been vaccinated, and masks were been worn by patients and staff throughout the whole shift.

Our patients have an impaired immune system, and vaccinations of all types are less effective for them than for people with functioning kidneys. If there are any clinicians of any grade on my unit who are too selfish to get vaccinated, damn right I want them removing, before they kill any more.

@Coconutmeg

The thing is, on the flip side, the NHS can’t cope with the staffing shortages when all these unvaccinated staff have to keep isolating. Best just get them out of the picture.

Do they still do that or do they take a PCR? I've lost track of what happens if you aren't vaxxed.

Lots of work out there (specifically with care staff) showing that when individuals have their concerns listened to, and have misinformation cleared up, they often change their mind about not wanting to be vaccinated

I agree with this totally.

One of my colleagues hasn’t been vaccinated (even though she is in an ‘at risk’ group) and the reasons she gives is that she doesn’t think it’s necessary as she doesn’t think she will be seriously ill with it if she does get it.

Unfortunately, numerous of our vaccinated colleagues have had Covid over the last 12 months, and the irony of the fact that the unvaccinated staff member hasn’t had it whereas others have, just strengthens her belief that it isn’t necessary. She said she doesn’t see the point.

I imagine though, like most, that she actually just an underlying fear of putting something ‘new’ into her body and sadly, I think fear can just spiral out of control. I think the longer someone puts it off due to fear, the more fearful of it they become.

I really do think that taking the time to talk to the unvaccinated and reassuring them will be what is most likely to get them to reconsider.

Taking time to talk to staff about the the vaccine is important but this has been going on for nearly 2 years now and health workers have access to all the science and facts. Are you a health professional OP, have you been vaccinated yourself.

@Changechangychange
Yeah I’m starting to wonder about the OP too….,