Mandatory vaccination

[amsadandconfused]

So I am not anti vac and have had my two doses and booster booked for next week. I do genuinely understand why a lot of my work colleagues are reluctant..Drs ,nurses ,carers etc . They are young people in their 20s/30s who are scared about the long term side effects ie infertility,blood disorders ..it’s very easy for people who are not in a job involving health care to be so critical of these lovely people .
Yes hepatitis B jab is mandatory for some but the hep jab has had many years of trials.
Can I ask everyone reading my post if you would be 100% happy if their 20 something children had this vaccine?

@Girliefriendlikespuppies

God this thread is depressing, you and your love ones are going to face more risk of dying because of a lack of staff (in health and social care) than any risk of catching covid.

It's cutting off your nose to spite your face to make the vaccine mandatory.

Very few NHS staff will leave iMO .... they will end up having the vaccine....I work in a team which is mainly band 6 and 7s ..... can’t see many people earning 40k a year leaving their job on a principle....People can’t afford to ......they have families to feed..l. we only have one lady who is unvaccinated.....she is now saying she will leave it until March next year then get the jab...... I think there will be many like her .....they will ‘talk the talk’ until next spring then quietly get the jab

@EileenGC

All the Covid vaccine producers asked for and got a legal indemnity in case problems arise in future. They did not specify what problems they were concerned about - maybe none at all.

Of course they will get that. I need a very specific, 9-figure personal liability insurance to do my job - I sometimes work in places like national art galleries or museums, next to very expensive, irreplaceable objects or paintings.

It doesn’t mean I intend to break anything or have some inside knowledge or prefabricated plan on what could go wrong. I get insurance because it’s the responsible thing to do. I don’t specify to my contractors why I have that insurance policy nor do I list all the things that could go wrong.

Vaccine producers will be insured just in case something happens and they need to be covered, not because they purposely know and are planning for irreplaceable lives to be lost.

The end result in the US is that parents have to shell out thousands for myocarditis-related heart problems and Pfizer doesn’t have to pay anything. Whereas you get COViD you usually didn’t have to pay anything (especially if you are under 27 and on parental insurance).

Here’s a thread by a parent facing these costs when her teenage son was hosptialised with myocarditis: twitter.com/eekymom/status/1455181929670746120?s=21

Hi OP, No I will definitely not be enouraging my teenagers to get the vaccine at this stage. It's the lack of long term data that most worries me and I'm not convinced that side-effects have been properly investigated yet. There seems to be a serious lack of transparency and anyone even questioning the official narrative gets shot down in flames. I feel so sorry for all the NHS and care workers who are being coerced and bullied over this. It's unethical and short-sighted as the governement have stated that over 103,000 workers could leave and are already mentioning delays and cuts to services as a result. This will clearly cause far more harm to patients than being treated by a regularly tested, PPE wearing health care professional. Anyone who can't see that is, in my opinion, being blinded by their own anger and prejudice.

Absolutely yes, you have a right to refuse any medical procedure or to put anything in your body. But you do not have a right to any particular job. No human rights are being violated. If you want a front line health care worker career get the job. Otherwise, do something else.

This is the crux of it really.
All jobs have specific requirements and if you don't meet those requirements then you are unlikely to get that job.
It's like someone choosing not to go to university because they didn't want to get into debt and aren't convinced that a degree is necessary and then complaining because they can't get a job that requires a degree.

@SpinsForGin

Absolutely yes, you have a right to refuse any medical procedure or to put anything in your body. But you do not have a right to any particular job. No human rights are being violated. If you want a front line health care worker career get the job. Otherwise, do something else.

This is the crux of it really.
All jobs have specific requirements and if you don't meet those requirements then you are unlikely to get that job.
It's like someone choosing not to go to university because they didn't want to get into debt and aren't convinced that a degree is necessary and then complaining because they can't get a job that requires a degree.

What you seem to be forgetting is that when these workers chose their careers within the NHS, the Covid vaccine had not been invented and no vaccines were mandated. This makes your argument somewhat redundant and irrelevant.

What you seem to be forgetting is that when these workers chose their careers within the NHS, the Covid vaccine had not been invented and no vaccines were mandated. This makes your argument somewhat redundant and irrelevant.

An organisation can change the terms and conditions of employment if they feel it's necessary. My organisation did exactly this a few years ago.
They made it a requirement that employees employed in a particular role had to hold a specific qualification. There were 100s of staff who didn't have this qualification. We were given a certain number of years to complete it and the organisation paid for staff to undertake the qualification but if you didn't do it. your contract was terminated.
Some staff tried to take the organisation to court and they lost.

For those considering a career in healthcare, my original argument stands.

@nojudgementhere things change in the NHS all the time and there is nothing you can do .....except leave. I have been tuped to different NHS trusts so many times I have lost count....each time I move there are new policies to adhere to....often things which have impacted negatively on me..... each time I have had 2 choices.....stay or go.....this is the same Situation. I can’t see many people giving up their nhs benefits and salary .... they will roll over and get the jab....of course there will be a few.... they will make the news....they will have their 5 minutes of fame....but it won’t have much impact on the NHS for those few.

What you seem to be forgetting is that when these workers chose their careers within the NHS, the Covid vaccine had not been invented and no vaccines were mandated. This makes your argument somewhat redundant and irrelevant.

And the fact that the vaccine doesn’t prevent someone from contracting/spreading the virus so you’re basically preventing someone from doing their job because they’ve decided that they don’t want to reduce their own personal risk to the virus. (Many because they’ve already had the virus)

twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1458336782236459014?s=20

Dr Claire Craig giving a fantastic explanation of why she is against mandatory Covid vaccines for NHS staff.

My only gripe with this is that medical professionals are now only coming forward because its directly effecting them. This should have been discussed when peoples liberties started to defend on having the vaccine.

When medical professionals who know what they are talking about instead of the average Joe Bloggs we need to listen.

This is political now rather than following the science.

But she is bang on when she talks about body autonomy.

@SpinsForGin

What you seem to be forgetting is that when these workers chose their careers within the NHS, the Covid vaccine had not been invented and no vaccines were mandated. This makes your argument somewhat redundant and irrelevant.

An organisation can change the terms and conditions of employment if they feel it's necessary. My organisation did exactly this a few years ago.
They made it a requirement that employees employed in a particular role had to hold a specific qualification. There were 100s of staff who didn't have this qualification. We were given a certain number of years to complete it and the organisation paid for staff to undertake the qualification but if you didn't do it. your contract was terminated.
Some staff tried to take the organisation to court and they lost.

For those considering a career in healthcare, my original argument stands.

Yes I agree with you ...they did this with the school nurses where I work....there was a big fuss .....then they just got on and did the qualification ( a couple chose not to, but only because they were coming up for retirement) ..... when you earn 40k plus it is not so easy to just give up your job for a principle.... where would you go to earn a similar salary?

But an organisation has the right to set specific requirements in relation to a job. In this case it's the vaccine..... It could be qualifications, working hours etc.

[quote Kitkat151]@nojudgementhere things change in the NHS all the time and there is nothing you can do .....except leave. I have been tuped to different NHS trusts so many times I have lost count....each time I move there are new policies to adhere to....often things which have impacted negatively on me..... each time I have had 2 choices.....stay or go.....this is the same Situation. I can’t see many people giving up their nhs benefits and salary .... they will roll over and get the jab....of course there will be a few.... they will make the news....they will have their 5 minutes of fame....but it won’t have much impact on the NHS for those few.[/quote]
Unfortunately that's not what the government are predicting. They seem fairly confident this will result in large numbers leaving and who am I to argue?!

@Evesgarden

twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1458336782236459014?s=20

Dr Claire Craig giving a fantastic explanation of why she is against mandatory Covid vaccines for NHS staff.

My only gripe with this is that medical professionals are now only coming forward because its directly effecting them. This should have been discussed when peoples liberties started to defend on having the vaccine.

When medical professionals who know what they are talking about instead of the average Joe Bloggs we need to listen.

This is political now rather than following the science.

But she is bang on when she talks about body autonomy.

Well one of the first things she says is 'sick people spread disease not healthy people' which is well known to be untrue for covid (and many other diseases).

Some people are asymptomatic but contagious

Many people are contagious for several days before they exhibit symptoms which would keep them off work (the presymptomatic period).

Some people have a mild runny nose etc.

I find it a bit disturbing a medical doctor could make such an obviously flawed claim.

Yes, ours have (18 year old, too). Very happy about it.

I'm not saying there's not a good argument against mandatory vaccination - I mean maybe staff could have the choice to have the vaccine or have to wear more PPE (e.g. full bodysuit, proper ventilator mask) if treating very vulnerable patients if not vaccinated.

But it's clear covid can be passed on when no symptoms.

I do think vulnerable patients should be able to expect that the risk they'll catch covid from their medical staff should be minimised.

When medical professionals who know what they are talking about instead of the average Joe Bloggs we need to listen.

She clearly does not know what she's talking about in this instance.

@theemperorhasnoclothes. You find it disturbing that some one is disagreeing with the narrative? You didn't like one sentence she said so you have disregarded every thing else she said because it dopant fit with what you believe.

Studies show that the vaccine only offers some protection to the individual and does not stop transmission. So even if the individual was vaccinated it offers no protection to the person actually in hospital receiving treatment.

Vaccinated people STILL spread the virus so what is the point in this mandate??

Dr Asseem Malhotra has also recently spoken out he is a prominent heart surgeon - does he disturb you as well?

Are all these medical professionals lying?

@SpinsForGin

But an organisation has the right to set specific requirements in relation to a job. In this case it's the vaccine..... It could be qualifications, working hours etc.

I don't think you can make direct comparisons in this way. Gaining extra qualifications or having to work different hours is extremely unlikely to have a negative impact on your health. If employers or the government want to start mandating jabs then they should surely, at the very least, be prepared to accept all liability if people suffer harm.

But it's a really important fact about covid. If only sick people spread it we probably wouldn't have a global pandemic.

I don't think people should be forced to be vaccinated but I DO think that risk from staff to patients should be minimised. This could be done with better PPE at a minimum and possibly other things too.

And whilst the vaccines don't stop you catching covid, they do reduce transmission a bit based on the evidence so far - and every little helps (especially if boosted as well which healthcare staff increasingly will be - the booster DOES seem to stop you catching it).

@milkyaqua

When medical professionals who know what they are talking about instead of the average Joe Bloggs we need to listen.

She clearly does not know what she's talking about in this instance.

Yep an incredibly intelligent women who's career is based in diagnostic pathology. Just incase you didn't know Diagnostic Pathology is -

• a medical specialty aiming the diagnosis of diseases, based mainly on the morphological study of cells or tissues or organs. Diagnostic pathology is the study of diseases with a specific aim : the diagnosis of diseases and tumors.

Obviously you know more than her

She makes a good point though.... what are the NHS going to do with all the non urgent medical care cases when they have sacked all these staff? The back log is already huge..how many lives are going to be shortened by this mandate?

I think this might be the turning point when the government step off the gas with the forcing of the vaccine if a strike/walk out happens

@theemperorhasnoclothes

But it's a really important fact about covid. If only sick people spread it we probably wouldn't have a global pandemic.

I don't think people should be forced to be vaccinated but I DO think that risk from staff to patients should be minimised. This could be done with better PPE at a minimum and possibly other things too.

And whilst the vaccines don't stop you catching covid, they do reduce transmission a bit based on the evidence so far - and every little helps (especially if boosted as well which healthcare staff increasingly will be - the booster DOES seem to stop you catching it).

Reducing it 'a bit' is unhelpful and doesn't carry much weight a bit like a leaky bucket and tbh it depends which piece of data/study you are more inclined to believe in as some studies show - there is no difference and the vaccine should have actually been done in nasal form.

I don't think you can make direct comparisons in this way. Gaining extra qualifications or having to work different hours is extremely unlikely to have a negative impact on your health. If employers or the government want to start mandating jabs then they should surely, at the very least, be prepared to accept all liability if people suffer harm.

It's extremely unlikely that having a vaccine will have a negative on your health. In fact, the mandatory PhD i was told I had to do or lose my job actually did impact both my physical and mental health in a negative way, more so than any vaccine i've ever had!

I travel internationally for my job and have had to have various vaccines to enable me to visit particular countries. How is this any different?

@nojudgementhere. As we all know, the government talk shit.... I stand by what I’ve said.... very few will leave.

@Evesgarden. Overreact, much? Oddly enough, yes, I have heard of diagnostic pathology. You might want to bear in mind that you have no idea of the background of anyone posting on MN.

This woman has made incorrect statements.

Rest assured, no government in the world is making these decisions by walking out onto the street and asking Joe Bloggs, as you put it, for their advice. They are advised by expert bodies, with far more experience in pandemic modelling and management than some woman who works in a path lab.

Meanwhile, you might want to read up on your 'eminent expert':

www.jackiecassell.com/tag/dr-clare-craig/

Well one of the first things she says is 'sick people spread disease not healthy people' which is well known to be untrue for covid (and many other diseases).

I just took that to mean that someone has to actually have the virus in order to spread it. If an unvaccinated person doesn’t actually have the virus then they’re not a risk to anyone.