Vaccines to be compulsory for front line medical staff

[bumbleymummy]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282

The covid vaccine, but not the flu vaccine. Although, I suppose the door has been opened for that one now too. They’re being given until spring. I wonder if there will be a massive walk out before winter. If you thought you were going to lose your job come spring, why would you work your ass off all winter? This could majorly backfire.

@Rosehip10

Any NHS hand-wringers saying "i'll leave then!" is just posturing, when faced with universal credit or minimum wage, zero benefits work, they will be vaccinated.

Are they not pretty much on minimum wage already?

@MeanderingGently

It's a pandemic. We don't want it to continue. To reduce the effectiveness of the virus and to stop mutations, the vaccination is what we have right now. Those in key caring roles should take the vaccine, I agree it is sensible. They have a choice.....leave and do something else if you refuse.

Yes, we have other diseases such as flu' but currently flu' is not pandemic proportions. Hospitals do get overwhelmed in the winter but nevertheless, we don't have a flu' pandemic at the moment.

I honestly can't understand why anyone working in a caring/NHS profession wouldn't want to be vaccinated anyway, unless they have specific medical reasons which prevent this. I do not want to be cared for by someone who refuses the vaccination, it's irresponsible and they shouldn't be in charge of my care...

In that case should staff be able to choose to not treat unvaccinated patients?

Good point about staff being able to refuse to treat unvaccinated

It's insanity. Not at all the same thing as the Hep vaccine, which is tried, tested and genuinely works as a vaccine - certainly a mandated vaccine - should by stopping infection and therefore transmission.
No logic, no scientific rigour, no thought to ethics. We seem to have reverted to the Dark Ages.

Plus the long-term health issues that a person is left with after a Covid infection that does in small proportion of cases lead to medium- and long-term sickness issues and staffing issues, avoidable to a large extent by vaccination.

@EmeraldShamrock

Not surprising alongside the usual yearly vaccinations they get. I assume front line medical staff believe in Covid19.

Like what?

There is no other mandated yearly vaccination.

What does employment law state?

Will there be 'test cases' for wrongful dismissal?

Unions? What are they saying?

The pay is shit - lots will start looking and realise that working elsewhere is better financially and jump ship. Don't blame them.
Working elsewhere may require the vaccine, companies are already insisting unvaccinated staff continue to work from home, they're not going to willing hire unvaccinated staff who can't be in the office.

I think it’s the right call.

Certainly in our ED department everyone I know has already been jabbed so no concerns here about ‘mass walkouts’.

And to be honest, if you are a nurse who doesn’t believe in science or research it’s probably better you find a new job anyway.

There is no other mandated yearly vaccination

The organisation I work for mandates the flu vaccine. And do you know what everyone gets it and cracks on with their job. This whole “it can’t be right because you have to get it every year” is just another invented “reason” why there is something wrong with it. Why are you trying to imagine a problem that doesn’t exist?

Companies cannot 'insist' ... what will they do, sack someone? What for?

@EmeraldShamrock

The pay is shit - lots will start looking and realise that working elsewhere is better financially and jump ship. Don't blame them. Working elsewhere may require the vaccine, companies are already insisting unvaccinated staff continue to work from home, they're not going to willing hire unvaccinated staff who can't be in the office.

It's not all companies though is it? There will be plenty of companies who don't mandate it. There is also the option of going self employed for instance. Its not like there are no other options if people feel strongly enough, and there will be people that do.

@xxxGirlCrushxxx

You honestly believe all NHS staff are on minimum wage?

NHS agenda for change band pay bands annual pay is from £18456 (band 2) to £93,735 (band 9)

Doctors are on different pay scales.

The vaccines arent a fail safe anyway

We are on the third, soon to be fourth.... how many will be needed?

I don’t see how this measure will have a positive impact. Most NHS staff have had the vaccine, and those that choose not to are doing regular lateral flow tests. Plus many are probably immune from potential exposure over the past 18 months.

I am angry that the government are focusing on this as the answer when it is a far more complex question. No one should be coerced into having a vaccine. Completely agree with above posters that the billions wasted on Track and Trace could have gone to actually improving hospital resources and space/ventilation.

@Mrbob

There is no other mandated yearly vaccination

The organisation I work for mandates the flu vaccine. And do you know what everyone gets it and cracks on with their job. This whole “it can’t be right because you have to get it every year” is just another invented “reason” why there is something wrong with it. Why are you trying to imagine a problem that doesn’t exist?

The NHS doesn't though which is what was said.

I haven't said anything about there being something wrong with it. I'm not creating any problems. I am pointing out that what was said is in fact, not true.

[quote Rosehip10]@xxxGirlCrushxxx

You honestly believe all NHS staff are on minimum wage?

NHS agenda for change band pay bands annual pay is from £18456 (band 2) to £93,735 (band 9)

Doctors are on different pay scales.[/quote]
No. Of course not!

But m as by are....

• but many are

The pay is very low for the work they do, I would think that if you were going to leave you would go now, looks like some only get little more than minimum wage for all that stress

@Cookerhood

All front line staff have to have hepatitis B vaccination & that doesn't seem to cause a fuss.

No they don't. The BMC advise they should, and can refuse to register Drs who don't but it's up to individual trusts to decide on vaccine policy. My trust have no mandatory vaccines.

This is a new legal precedent.

I am fully vaccinated.

@User5632986

The pay is very low for the work they do, I would think that if you were going to leave you would go now, looks like some only get little more than minimum wage for all that stress

Yep, exactly

And will they insist on other workers, cleaners,delivery drivers etc are vaccinated too?

@User5632986 Please show me these other "minimum wage" jobs with 27+ days annual leave, decent pension, decent maternity leave etc etc
Yes, many jobs in the NHS are busy and stressful, so are many jobs - carers for example get none of the above in their jobs.

@stopposting

Obviously if people would rather give up their jobs or get redeployed to non-patient contact roles than get vaccinated then that won't help staffing shortages.

But equally there are currently short-term staffing shortages that cannot be planned for due to unvaccinated staff still having to do 10 day isolations if they are a close contact, even if they don't test positive, whereas vaccinated staff don't have to isolate.

Also triple vaccinated staff are 95% protected against even testing positive, so logically unvaccinated staff are many times more likely to test positive have to self-isolate for 10 days with Covid.

So there are significant staffing shortages (that cause short term disruption because they can't be planned for, unlike a vacancy) caused by staff not being vaccinated against Covid.

The staff shortages are not just going to be caused by staff having to leave/be redeployed to back office. They also exist inherently in having unvaccinated staff on the rota/payroll.

So correct me if I'm wrong here, but what you're saying is that this is less about protecting patients and more about keeping NHS staff at work and not off either sick with COVID or isolating?

Doesn't that make it worse from an ethical and moral point of view?

Isn't it then a short leap from employers insisting on all kinds of things you may not want to do to keep you healthy and working?

Is that the kind of world we want to be moving towards?

[quote Rosehip10]@User5632986 Please show me these other "minimum wage" jobs with 27+ days annual leave, decent pension, decent maternity leave etc etc
Yes, many jobs in the NHS are busy and stressful, so are many jobs - carers for example get none of the above in their jobs.[/quote]
28 days annual leave is the legal minimum

@ItMustBeBedtimeSurely

I think it’s the right call.

Certainly in our ED department everyone I know has already been jabbed so no concerns here about ‘mass walkouts’.

And to be honest, if you are a nurse who doesn’t believe in science or research it’s probably better you find a new job anyway.

I know several HCPs who aren't vaccinated and the odd nurse. A few porters, discharge coordinators and auxillary staff/ housekeepers as well. Several have religious objections (7th day Adventists) others are anti vaxx conspiracy theorists.