Are people dying of Covid, or with Covid?

[lightand]

As they are different things.

Does anyone actually know?

There will always be people dying with Covid, as the elderly, especially, die, and some of them, like the rest of us, will always die whilst having Covid.

So could 180 per day per winter be an average number going forward, forever now? [and the NHS should well be into the process of gearing up for that?]

Oh, sweet Jesus.

When have people become so blasé about discussing deaths of the elderly?

They’re old. Fuck ‘em obviously 🙄

Why do people keep starting threads asking the same thing?

How bloody insensitive.
I lost my father not that long ago, should I just shrug and say well he had to die eventually. No. Because I am a decent person who doesn’t view people as statics and I see each death as someone’s heart ache.

Why does it matter?

Of course it matters when the government policy in reaction to these deaths has affected every facet of our lives for the better part of two year. FFS.

If people accept that the mainly elderly die, and with Covid not of Covid, why are so many people still so frightened of Covid itself?
And I very much include the government in that.

The Government must well know that 180 per day figure is going to be perfectly normal going forward.

No point even saying the figures.
Twill be the same this Oct, next Oct and every Oct.
Elderly die. Government knows this. Everyone knows it.

So why the make believe, pretend hoo haa over it.

Time for the Government to stop.

Dying ‘with covid’ obviously means there’s a very good chance that having covid has sped up their death, robbing them and their loved ones of time. Who are you to say that it’s ok that older people die quicker ‘with covid’ so long as the younger/healthier arnt in danger. It may be a normal figure going forward but that doesn’t mean the government need to stop mentioning it, at what point does the figure become significant for you?

I’m not vulnerable or even afraid of covid myself, I just think your attitude is ugly.

@hopeishere

Why does it matter?

Of course it matters.

These things need to be discussed dispassionately without people getting offended.

The problem is that the 180 figure is from when people were contracting the virus 3 or 4 weeks ago the daily COVID cases then were around 30,000 ,the figures now are nearing 50,000,the deaths are thankfully a lot less than last year before the vaccines,but they do appear to be rising albeit slowly ,it's a fine balancing act nobody wants restrictions again but neither do we want the NHS to be overwhelmed.

It really matters why, people die when they're elderly, no shit Sherlock

Very ugly op.

If they're dying with Covid then it won't make a different to the death rate will it.

If they're dying of Covid there will be excess deaths.

You're well aware there are excess deaths as you refer repeatedly to a new figure we should get used to.

Toxicly disingenuous bit of conflation there, especially as you're complaining that government isn't being straight.

We're in the habit of preserving life for as long as possible if it's what the patient wants. Patients with cancer if we don't treat it. We do so whether they are 7 or 70, thank goodness, with no guarantee they won't die of something else next month.

Covid is a particularly unpleasant death. We're not ok with the excess death, not ok with the horrific experience of dying from this illness that is unnecessarily welcomed in the UK.

die

Also... twill???

Twill, as you nonchalantly discuss something that is at best tragic?

Ffs. What do you think you are, grim reaper turned wannabe cool girl?

@lightand

As they are different things.

Does anyone actually know?

There will always be people dying with Covid, as the elderly, especially, die, and some of them, like the rest of us, will always die whilst having Covid.

So could 180 per day per winter be an average number going forward, forever now? [and the NHS should well be into the process of gearing up for that?]

I get where you're coming from because meaningful data for life changing decisions affecting millions and millions of people is extremely important and the media use some of the stats wrongly to whip people up into a frenzy. Apparently that will equate to old people being disposable. It doesn't but it does on MN.

@Tillysfad

Very ugly op.

If they're dying with Covid then it won't make a different to the death rate will it.

If they're dying of Covid there will be excess deaths.

You're well aware there are excess deaths as you refer repeatedly to a new figure we should get used to.

Toxicly disingenuous bit of conflation there, especially as you're complaining that government isn't being straight.

We're in the habit of preserving life for as long as possible if it's what the patient wants. Patients with cancer if we don't treat it. We do so whether they are 7 or 70, thank goodness, with no guarantee they won't die of something else next month.

Covid is a particularly unpleasant death. We're not ok with the excess death, not ok with the horrific experience of dying from this illness that is unnecessarily welcomed in the UK.

There are many unpleasant deaths. People rarely die quietly in their sleep. My father died of Alzheimer's after a six year highly distressing decline. It was pneumonia that finished him off and when we went to the registrar, they even asked us if we wanted Alzheimer's on the death certificate as well as the pneumonia. Obviously we said yes of course, but apparently a lot of people say no.

Covid would not have been a worse death.

My father died last Tuesday.

He was 96. Not from Covid
Hope that helps you insensitive cow.

We have a fairly good idea of how many people are dying of covid, yes. ONS counts deaths where covid is listed on the death certificate. They break these numbers down into deaths where covid was the underlying cause of death and those where it was a contributory factor.

Yes it matters. That’s why we measure it.

To clarify, he was covid free. He was tested

Elderly die. Government knows this. Everyone knows it.

So why the make believe, pretend hoo haa over it.

A little startling to see you have described yourself as 'a Christian'.

This thread is living proof why there will never be a rational discussion about Covid on MN.

I don't see anything whatsoever wrong with acknowledging the fact that when people get to the end of their lives, something will cause their lives to end, and while it's sad for the people who loves them, every death is not a tragedy. I didn't expect everyone to stop and grieve with me when my dad died at only 74.

a rational discussion

Do you think the OP's incoherent and unpleasant posts are a particularly good starting point for a rational discussion?!

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/excess-mortality-in-england-weekly-reports

The point is that people of all ages are dying who would not die but for this virus. Is it your position that we should just sacrifice some people so as to avoid inconvenience to others (such as wearing a mask in the supermarket)? Presumably the sacrificial lambs should be other people’s friends and families and not yours?

It's just weird though, all this cowering from death. People getting all offended because the deaths of elderly people are being discussed?My Dad is almost 90, I accept he will probably die in the not too distant future which makes me very sad but it's hardly unexpected. Of course I could drop dead of a heart attack this afternoon ahead of him but generally it will go chronologically. Why do people get so faux offended as though you're being personally insulted ?

@milkyaqua

a rational discussion

Do you think the OP's incoherent and unpleasant posts are a particularly good starting point for a rational discussion?!

No. I agree it would be nice to be able to have one, though, without going straight into opposing camps of “nobody’s actually dying FROM covid the government just make it up” vs “you have blood on your hands you heartless murdering sociopath.”