Are people dying of Covid, or with Covid?

[lightand]

As they are different things.

Does anyone actually know?

There will always be people dying with Covid, as the elderly, especially, die, and some of them, like the rest of us, will always die whilst having Covid.

So could 180 per day per winter be an average number going forward, forever now? [and the NHS should well be into the process of gearing up for that?]

Good job I'm not holding my breath...

In terms of death certificates, if someone early on died and was not tested, but all their symptoms pointed to covid as did the course of the disease, then, of course, they were recorded as covid deaths

There are literally hundreds of other illnesses that can have similar symptoms to covid. It’s not good enough when you consider the following.

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2020/10/uk-older-people-in-care-homes-abandoned-to-die-amid-government-failures-during-covid-19-pandemic/

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/coronaviruscovid19relateddeathsbydisabilitystatusenglandandwales/24januaryto20november2020

@lightand

As they are different things.

Does anyone actually know?

There will always be people dying with Covid, as the elderly, especially, die, and some of them, like the rest of us, will always die whilst having Covid.

So could 180 per day per winter be an average number going forward, forever now? [and the NHS should well be into the process of gearing up for that?]

My mum had secondary liver cancer, COPD, and emphysema.

She died because her heart stopped beating but she did WITH the above diseases and all were listed on her death certificate.

There are an enormous number of excess deaths. I do hope that is not our new normal as it will mean life expectancy will fall.

Isn't there a special section for people who really don't want covid to be real? ADs or something? OP could go there and people would say YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!!! and so on. I'm sure that would be very gratifying.

The "but it won't kill me so I don't care" crowd are not quite the same, but the overlap is nearly total I think so they may as well band together.

The biggest risk factor for dying of covid is living in a care home.

All the socio-economic and geographical circumstances and pre-existing health conditions considered made some difference to the risk for people with learning disabilities, but the largest effect was associated with living in a care home or other communal establishment

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/coronaviruscovid19relateddeathsbydisabilitystatusenglandandwales/24januaryto20november2020

The uk has relaxed the use of controlled drugs within care homes.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-drug-supply-rules-uk-lockdown-matt-hancock-suffering-a9489941.html

It cannot be right that care home staff can use drugs prescribed for other residents or implement blanket dnrs on residents without discussion. It cannot be right then that a doctor will issue a death certificate remotely and there will be no investigation.

They count the deaths as dying with COVID if they die after a positive COVID result within 28 days... So test positive for COVID but die of cancer-related issue 20 days later? You get included in the death figures. It's dishonest.
It is not dishonest, it was the pragmatic decision when all this has started but yes, it does skew the data very significantly when the prevalence in the population as high as it is now.

@julieca

Full fact say vast majority died of covid. fullfact.org/online/deaths-only-from-coronavirus/

In terms of death certificates, if someone early on died and was not tested, but all their symptoms pointed to covid as did the course of the disease, then, of course, they were recorded as covid deaths.

This is quite an old study, mid 2020 - actually prior to the widespread testing.

@LastTrainEast

Isn't there a special section for people who really don't want covid to be real? ADs or something? OP could go there and people would say YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!!! and so on. I'm sure that would be very gratifying.

The "but it won't kill me so I don't care" crowd are not quite the same, but the overlap is nearly total I think so they may as well band together.

You've got that very wrong

@LastTrainEast

Isn't there a special section for people who really don't want covid to be real? ADs or something? OP could go there and people would say YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!!! and so on. I'm sure that would be very gratifying.

The "but it won't kill me so I don't care" crowd are not quite the same, but the overlap is nearly total I think so they may as well band together.

Oh, I so wish.

But unfortunately there they can't ask probing questions - and then ignore the people who take the time to give them thorough and knowledgeable answers and only respond to those who agree with them.

@DumplingsAndStew

And yet, when questioned god knows how many times over the past 18 months, have any of you been able to sensibly respond to the question of "Why would the Government be overinflating numbers intentionally? What is in it for them?"

Are you scared and are you doing as you are told? Nothing sinister for a government to “temporarily” change laws because the country is “in a state of emergency”, and ensuring everyone remains frightened so as to not actually care that those lost freedoms/privileges remain lost. Control is the simple answer. Or does that not fit your definition of sensible.

Oh, come on. That lot couldn't find their own way out of a wet paper bag.

@forinborin yes it is Fullfact published a recent one, but I didn't have time to try and find it. I have read it, but there are so many fact-check articles on here.
fullfact.org/health/coronavirus/

My mum died OF covid. Because of covid. Nothing else, but covid ravaged her organs and her heart stopped eventually.
She was 70.
Is that old enough for you?
Because in my mind, she still had a good few years to go, she wasnt finished with life yet.
Ffs, I cant believe people still think like you OP

@HesterShaw1

You've got that very wrong

Haven't you managed to find it, Hester?

@DumplingsAndStew

And yet, when questioned god knows how many times over the past 18 months, have any of you been able to sensibly respond to the question of "Why would the Government be overinflating numbers intentionally? What is in it for them?"

The answer to that is that they were given advice re recording figures in a certain way and have had to stick with it. They aren't delberately inflating cases but may be doing so incomptently.

I am by no means a Covid-denier but think the data, and the way it is recorded, is hugely important, and I sm grateful for this thread and the discussion.

Though I think people saying that this Government are bringing in measures because they like control have a basic lack of understanding of the type of politicians who are in power at the moment. I can't stand them, and find them utterly incompetent, but a big state and high public spending are anathema to them.

Do an 'excess deaths' search.
This will give you your answer.
Yes, people are still dying with Covid. Covid is still speeding up people's deaths or causing them to die too early.

Their age is irrelevant if the virus has caused them to die earlier than they would have without Covid.

Covid is little more than a cold for some people, and some are asyptomatic.

For some people, yes.
For lots of others it is much worse than a cold. Especially in those who are more vulnerable due to age or health conditions.

Even if someone is more vulnerable generally, then surely the fact that Covid may well have increased their chance of dying earlier still counts.

Or do the premature deaths of people who are elderly or have health conditions not count?

Do you genuinely believe that the whole world's governments are just making up the seriousness of Covid and how it is affecting excess deaths across the world?

It is t just England who are dealing with this. Not even just the U.K. we are talking about the whole world.

If Covid was genuinely little more than a
Cold type virus only affecting the elderly, and people were 'only' dying with Covid and not of it - do you really honestly believe the whole world would be treating it so seriously?

@Faultymain5

So you believe the Government are intentionally overinflating numbers because "control"? You're right, I don't find that a sensible explanation. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@Faultymain5

So you believe the Government are intentionally overinflating numbers because "control"? You're right, I don't find that a sensible explanation. 🤷🏼‍♀️[/quote]
Why would you? The British government wouldn’t do anything like that. No government in the history of the world is purposefully tyrannical. It’s just a coincidence and not one government is taking advantage of the horrible situation we’re in. I mean it’s not like they’d give their family and friends financial advantages in such a situation.

Look put simply there is a scale of what people believe is plausible and what they wouldn’t believe at all. You can say something is not sensible because it isn’t plausible to you . But 15 years ago I would have said Brexit wasn’t plausible (nor sensible), yet here we are. Before judging what is sensible from what is not sensible I have a tendency to watch things play out. And as people sit back, cold, hungry and too busy to notice that their “freedoms” such that they are, are being eroded bit by bit “for their own good”. There are people pointing one or two things out and there are people literally saying they are not sensible, they are crackpots, they are conspiracy theory nuts.

I’d rather question everything, than accept everything that is shown to me. But that’s me.

Btw I think the moon landings were real, just so you can have an idea of where O am on the scale.

Such a stupid question that appears to assume anyone can ever know the exact cause of a death happening at the precise time it happens. It’s like asking whether someone who had a brain aneurysm died of that or the blow to the head they got just before they died. Or whether the person who hit them is guilty of murder or just bad luck that they chose to hit the wrong victim. Excess deaths indicate it is reasonable to say that a lot of people are dying of covid, rather than playing silly buggers with what you think that means.

If I died of covid whilst undergoing treatment for cancer, you could argue I would not have died of covid if it were not for the cancer, but nor would I have died of cancer at that time, or possibly at any time, if I had not got covid. So, what did I die of? My heart stopping beating forever, basically.

If you get a "died with COVID" for dying of anything after a positive test within those 28 days... What exactly doesn't count as dying with COVID? Drowning? Getting hit by a bus?