Are people dying of Covid, or with Covid?

[lightand]

As they are different things.

Does anyone actually know?

There will always be people dying with Covid, as the elderly, especially, die, and some of them, like the rest of us, will always die whilst having Covid.

So could 180 per day per winter be an average number going forward, forever now? [and the NHS should well be into the process of gearing up for that?]

@Hotcoffee10I see you're ignoring all the issues with your posts on masks and instead have swerved onto lockdowns

Please link to the any published risk/benefit assessment of lockdown and pandemic control measures - as far as I’m aware there isn’t one.

You don't seem to aware of the current body of literature for something you keep posting on. Here's a recent article in BMJ global health by a team of epimdeiolgists who have a strong publication history of good quality articles in relevant areas.

gh.bmj.com/content/6/8/e006653

While there are certainly costs to be expected from intervening against COVID-19—every decision has a cost, after all—the counterfactual of an unmitigated epidemic makes these restrictions far less damaging than some have suggested. These counterfactuals are not hypothetical and have been observed tragically globally. It appears clear from evidence to date that government interventions, even more restrictive ones such as stay-at-home orders, are beneficial in some circumstances and unlikely to be causing harms more extreme than the pandemic itself.

[quote Covidworries]@hotcoffee10

As a deaf person, i want masks to be used.
Please dont use the term hearing impaired the community prefer Deaf.

If you want to support the deaf community use a clear mask. Campaigne against the injustices we have been facing far longer than thispandemic.
Hospitals not booking interpreters for appointments, resulting in deaf community life expectancy being lower than the rest of the UK.
Lackof approprate educatio resulting in deaf children recieving atleasta grade below hearing peers.
Families of deaf children being denied support to learn BSL often leftto source and fund themselves when this should be provided to all as standard.
Were you shouting about the injustice of no subtitles on channel 4 for over a month or that England covid briefings had no interpreter which disadvantaged us through lackof accessible information.

You dont get to use us as reason to promote your anti mask propoganda especially if you arent allies supporting the many many injustices that have been ongoing.[/quote]
Very well said.

@Covidworries

You dont get to use us as reason to promote your anti mask propoganda especially if you arent allies supporting the many many injustices that have been ongoing.

This!

These groups and 'individuals' weren't shouting when the deaf community were already marginalised. They weren't campaigning when those with health conditions were already treated like shit because they were unable to do things that others can. They weren't supporting those who were housebound long before and since any lockdowns. They weren't arguing on behalf of the thousands of children and young people already struggling to access appropriate education due to being able to have their needs met in schools.

The pretence that their interests are anything other than self-centred now is laughable.

@Hotcoffee10

Danish study wasn’t discredited. Some people said the data was inconclusive and some said it might show a likely benefit. It certainly didn’t provide evidence community mask wearing is effective.

Since I’ve posted “covid minimising” posts you don’t see any point sharing this evidence of which you speak with me. So no point in engaging further I guess.

I don’t view myself as covid minimising more mad about the harm that Covid control policies have done to the most vulnerable globally with very very poor evidence of benefit. But the thing seems to have a momentum of its own now and almost religious fervour among the adherents. Good night, thanks for the chat.

You are 100% correct here!

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@Covidworries

You dont get to use us as reason to promote your anti mask propoganda especially if you arent allies supporting the many many injustices that have been ongoing.

This!

These groups and 'individuals' weren't shouting when the deaf community were already marginalised. They weren't campaigning when those with health conditions were already treated like shit because they were unable to do things that others can. They weren't supporting those who were housebound long before and since any lockdowns. They weren't arguing on behalf of the thousands of children and young people already struggling to access appropriate education due to being able to have their needs met in schools.

The pretence that their interests are anything other than self-centred now is laughable.[/quote]
Your argument suggests that you cannot stand up for people's rights unless you have always done so in the past. Clearly that is silly. You stand up for something when you become aware of it, you can't expect people to lobby on behalf of causes or issues that are not in their awareness.

I've just realised that hotcoffee10 is the poster who applauded the JCVI decision not to vaccinate teenagers as "vaccines don't prevent transmission", was strangely quiet under that username when the CMOs overturned the decision and thankfully, three weeks later had had her own 12 year old vaccinated (presumably undergoing some kind of Paul on the road to Damascus volte-face) only to start an innocent thread asking about vaccinating teens which went into "operation creep" and "they're going to be vaccinating them every year forever" faster than a wet Gremlin turns snarky.
So:
Masks- check
Lockdowns-check
Vaccination- check

Are we missing anything?

@Lilifer- are you really attacking a member of the deaf community who doesn't want conspiracy theorists suddenly speaking in their name?

@Lilifer

Your argument suggests that you cannot stand up for people's rights unless you have always done so in the past. Clearly that is silly. You stand up for something when you become aware of it, you can't expect people to lobby on behalf of causes or issues that are not in their awareness.

Not when it's patently obvious ou're only using them to further your agenda for something like not wanting to wear a mask, or not wanting people to get vaccinated, or any other suppression. The poster only seems to post about helping these communities in this context?

Similar to the faux outrage for "poor" people (I doubt anyone actually invested in helping these communities would refer to them as such), and the people who didn't give a jot about anti-Semitism but now suddenly keep bringing up the Holocaust because it suits them.

@SapereAude

I've just realised that hotcoffee10 is the poster who applauded the JCVI decision not to vaccinate teenagers as "vaccines don't prevent transmission", was strangely quiet under that username when the CMOs overturned the decision and thankfully, three weeks later had had her own 12 year old vaccinated (presumably undergoing some kind of Paul on the road to Damascus volte-face) only to start an innocent thread asking about vaccinating teens which went into "operation creep" and "they're going to be vaccinating them every year forever" faster than a wet Gremlin turns snarky. So: Masks- check Lockdowns-check Vaccination- check

Are we missing anything?

Yes, recent NC.

I find it strange there are never posters who have a solid rationale for opposing one aspect of COVID measures (of those that are generally agreed upon like mask wearing, testing, mass vaccination of adults) it's always that ALL these unrealated COVID policies are bad.

Almost as if they're getting their info from somewhere like bitchute and oddessey where all these ideas are neatly packaged up and presented.

[quote SapereAude]@Lilifer- are you really attacking a member of the deaf community who doesn't want conspiracy theorists suddenly speaking in their name?[/quote]
Please quote the words I've used that constitute an attack....?

Not the pp but you did dismiss a Deaf persons concerns about this as "silly" @Lilifer

@henlee

Not the pp but you did dismiss a Deaf persons concerns about this as "silly" *@Lilifer*

If you read my post you will see that what I describe as "silly" is the notion that one cannot stand up against an issue just because they did not stand up against it in the past, when they were unaware of it. Describing a point as silly is not a personal attack.

It seems pretty self-serving to me to only “stand up for deaf people” when arguing masks should not be worn and not, now you have discovered an issue with the rights and interests of deaf people, to stand up for them where your personal agenda does not overlap in any way with theirs (eg re subtitles or BSL interpreters).

@Walkaround

It seems pretty self-serving to me to only “stand up for deaf people” when arguing masks should not be worn and not, now you have discovered an issue with the rights and interests of deaf people, to stand up for them where your personal agenda does not overlap in any way with theirs (eg re subtitles or BSL interpreters).

I can only speak for myself and say that up till now I would have been largely unaware of the issues that deaf people have had to contend with in terms of lack of resources etc Now that it has been raised here it doesn't mean that I cannot be concerned about those issues and feel they should be addressed whilst at the same time still believe that face masks cannot be a good thing for deaf people who cannot then lip read. My own concern with masks is with children and teenagers. I have kids and I can see how they have found it difficult wearing masks in school all day and I have spoken with many teachers who say that they find it really hard to teach kids with masks on as they cannot read their facial expressions clearly and cannot connect with them properly because of this. It also concerns me that babies and toddlers who learn though observing their care givers facial expression are also having their early development stunted by this but quite apart from all this I would accept these mitigations if someone somewhere could show me a properly peer reviewed rigorous academic study that shows very clearly that masks protect us from COVID-19. Because as far as I can make out if your glasses can steam up when you are wearing a mask and covid is an aerosol born virus then how the hell can a mask make any difference if our breath is able to seep up and out from the front and the sides of the mask?? The mask has taken on a totemic role now, it makes us feel safe and like we are being responsible caring citizens doing the right thinks for society which has a feel good factor, but does it actually prevent spread of aerosol droplets borne virus? I would like to think so but I have yet to see the scientific evidence to prove it.

they cannot read their facial expressions clearly and cannot connect with them properly because of this.

My kid couldn't read facial expressions before covid and mask wearing, were you concerned about their ability to connect with people before 2020?

You were unaware that deaf people had struggles in the world, and unavailability of resources that would help them? You weren't unaware, you weren't listening.

"My kid couldn't read facial expressions before covid and mask wearing, were you concerned about their ability to connect with people before 2020?"

Well I'm guessing that I have as much concern about your child as you do about mine on their ability to connect or not connect with people 🤔

@lilifer

Of course people cant stand up against issues they dont understand but if they dont understand they shouldnt be using us as a reason for or against anything.

As in hearing people there are those who are anti mask and thos who are pro mask. Yes masks make communication more complex but if anything people are more aware abpit lip reading now than ever before. People will lower mask and make eye contact. Which is better for communication than chatting away while facing the other way which is often what happens. Ironically audiologist are one of the worse for doing this ime

So yes do find out about the oppression we face and stand against it with us but dont make assumptions and use us for your own agenda especially if you arent interested in all the oppression we face

[quote Covidworries]@lilifer

Of course people cant stand up against issues they dont understand but if they dont understand they shouldnt be using us as a reason for or against anything.

As in hearing people there are those who are anti mask and thos who are pro mask. Yes masks make communication more complex but if anything people are more aware abpit lip reading now than ever before. People will lower mask and make eye contact. Which is better for communication than chatting away while facing the other way which is often what happens. Ironically audiologist are one of the worse for doing this ime

So yes do find out about the oppression we face and stand against it with us but dont make assumptions and use us for your own agenda especially if you arent interested in all the oppression we face[/quote]
It was a different poster, not me, who mentioned deaf people as possible having a problem with masks because of lip reading. I did not do so, as I've stated before my concern around mask wearing is the difficulties it poses in school for students and teachers and as a separate concern the impact it may have on the development of babies and young infants who learn from their care givers facial expressions, this is a concern that has been raised by paediatricians and child psychologists.

. www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/COVID-19/Pages/Do-face-masks-interfere-with-language-development.aspx

www.cbsnews.com/news/aap-mask-recommendations-kids-2-years-covid-vaccine/ (study references the fact that BLIND children learn to speak and communicate at the same rate as non visually impaired children)

edition.cnn.com/2021/08/11/health/masks-child-development-effects-covid-pandemic-wellness/index.html (references paediatric studies in 2012 showing that children suffer no developmental communicative delay if their interlocutor wears a mask)

Obviously, there are studies supporting the antithesis of this. (NY Times has one, as does the Scientific American) And I'm sure the posters who believe masks hinder development will cite them. Probably missing out the bit in those studies which say that yes, there is the POTENTIAL for development to be somewhat hindered IF PARENTS, EDUCATORS and CAREGIVERS DON'T communicate efficiently with the child in non mask wearing situations. So, if your 4 year old is in nursery school for the morning, and when you take them home you sit with your mask on all evening, then sure, maybe there would be some speech developmental delay, most notably in children who ALREADY have delay.

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-01/five-million-covid19-deaths-but-real-toll-hidden/100568156

For all you of not withers.

My husband has Covid and we have both been self isolating. Unfortunately I am now positive. If he tests negative and I understand that he shouldn't re get the covid from me, being the same strand. When is he safe to leave the house?

milky thanks for that. I am still however trying to find out UK and international excess deaths. It does not quite give that figure. I ould like it over a 5 year peroid eg someone old might have died of covid in 2020 but would have died in 2021 anyway as they were sick already so I just wanted rough figures over, say, 5 years of how many extra people have been dying of anything as that is probably going to be the planet's best true estimate (even if we add in deaths in wars like Ukraine in that period) as probably nothing but covid would account for excess deaths over norms (i suppose except that in most Western countries, Japan too etc we are gradually having more and more older people so I think that probably means death numbers will rise in a sense).

Let me see what I can find on a google search.

I am not sure this answers it for me.
www.bmj.com/content/379/bmj.o3044 - derived from:
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/comparisonsofallcausemortalitybetweeneuropeancountriesandregions/28december2019toweekending1july2022#main-points

It says 3% over 2 years so is that an excess of 1.5% for each of the covid years? I think so.

It is quite hard to work it out as if the obese, sick, those with diabetes and heart disease and who are very old died in 2020-2021 but would have died anyway in 2022 in some cases that slightly warps the figures as 2022 post pandemic when they otherwise might have died otherwise had covid not been around then looks much lower.