Are people dying of Covid, or with Covid?

[lightand]

As they are different things.

Does anyone actually know?

There will always be people dying with Covid, as the elderly, especially, die, and some of them, like the rest of us, will always die whilst having Covid.

So could 180 per day per winter be an average number going forward, forever now? [and the NHS should well be into the process of gearing up for that?]

@DuesToTheDirt

If they're dying with Covid then it won't make a different to the death rate will it.

If they're dying of Covid there will be excess deaths.

Except that excess deaths could be caused by the effects of Covid on society, e.g. difficulty in getting cancer referrals or help for mental health, rather than by the virus itself.

Missed cancer diagnoses and suicides wouldn't track positive tests. The pattern of excess deaths seen in the UK does.

Well we know that the Conservative party did discuss survival of the fittest at the beginning. Obviously you think that debate should be resurrected. I don't.

I have serious concerns about these figures.

Many people do not realise that the laws surrounding post-mortems and death registrations have changed. Most people don’t understand what a post Mortem is anyway and why they were required in the first place. They were a type of safeguarding. Prior to COVID nearly everyone who died unexpectedly was referred to the coroner and had a post mortem.

Death registrations and post-mortems became much stricter after Harold shipmen. For good reason.

What these changes mean is that a doctor can decide your relative died of COVID without seeing them and without a positive test. And they can do that via a video call.

The majority of covid deaths occur in elderly people in hospitals and care homes. And they’re not being investigated properly.That is extremely alarming .We know hospitals make mistakes and we know unfortunately how many elderly folk are mistreated in care homes.

When it comes to our vulnerable family members its unacceptable to remove safeguarding or to think, presume or guess their cause of death. And it’s not good enough to do that via video call and use those figures to justify a lockdown.

Many families are rightfully uneasy about their relatives death being put down to covid. Funeral directors who have raised concerns about this have been disciplined.

Referring deaths to the coroner
Covid-19 is an acceptable direct or underlying cause of death for the purposes of completing the Medical Certificate of Cause of Death
Covid-19 is not a reason on its own to refer a death to a coroner under the Coroners and Justice Act 2009.
• That Covid-19 is a notifiable disease under the Health Protection (Notification) Regulations 2010 does not mean referral to a coroner is required by virtue of its notifiable status.
Medical practitioners are required to certify causes of death “to the best of their knowledge and belief”. Without diagnostic proof, if appropriate and to avoid delay, medical practitioners can circle ‘2’ in the MCCD (“information from post-mortem may be available later”) or tick Box B on the reverse of the MCCD for ante-mortem investigations. For example, if before death the patient had symptoms typical of COVID- 19 infection, but the test result has not been received, it would be satisfactory to give ‘COVID-19’ as the cause of death, tick Box B and then share the test result when it becomes available

For the purposes of the emergency period, the attendance may be in person, via video/visual consultation, but not audio (e.g. via telephone).

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf

They count the deaths as dying with COVID if they die after a positive COVID result within 28 days... So test positive for COVID but die of cancer-related issue 20 days later? You get included in the death figures. It's dishonest.

The death could be completely unrelated to COVID, it will still be included in the figures if you had a positive test.

Do people die with cancer or of cancer?

Do people die with RTC injuiries ot of RTC injuries?

🙄

@oswina
And if they die after 28 days due to covid they dont get counted in figures.

If you catch covid for 2nd time you dont get counted in case, hospital numberss or deaths

Data is manipulated

The OP is trying to suggest that not many people are actually dying of covid and has ignored all the posters who point out that the numbers undercount because they don't include the many people who die of covid more than 28 days. Think of those on ventilators for many weeks who later die.

@Oswina

They count the deaths as dying with COVID if they die after a positive COVID result within 28 days... So test positive for COVID but die of cancer-related issue 20 days later? You get included in the death figures. It's dishonest.

The death could be completely unrelated to COVID, it will still be included in the figures if you had a positive test.

In real life though, someone might have a long-standing diagnosis of cancer but the coup de grace would be delivered by covid. Both diagnoses would rightly be on the death certificate. That's not dishonest, that is right.

These things often are multifactorial; covid has often been the actual cause of death in the person's last acute illness.

[quote FlorenciaFlora]I have serious concerns about these figures.

Many people do not realise that the laws surrounding post-mortems and death registrations have changed. Most people don’t understand what a post Mortem is anyway and why they were required in the first place. They were a type of safeguarding. Prior to COVID nearly everyone who died unexpectedly was referred to the coroner and had a post mortem.

Death registrations and post-mortems became much stricter after Harold shipmen. For good reason.

What these changes mean is that a doctor can decide your relative died of COVID without seeing them and without a positive test. And they can do that via a video call.

The majority of covid deaths occur in elderly people in hospitals and care homes. And they’re not being investigated properly.That is extremely alarming .We know hospitals make mistakes and we know unfortunately how many elderly folk are mistreated in care homes.

When it comes to our vulnerable family members its unacceptable to remove safeguarding or to think, presume or guess their cause of death. And it’s not good enough to do that via video call and use those figures to justify a lockdown.

Many families are rightfully uneasy about their relatives death being put down to covid. Funeral directors who have raised concerns about this have been disciplined.

Referring deaths to the coroner
Covid-19 is an acceptable direct or underlying cause of death for the purposes of completing the Medical Certificate of Cause of Death
Covid-19 is not a reason on its own to refer a death to a coroner under the Coroners and Justice Act 2009.
• That Covid-19 is a notifiable disease under the Health Protection (Notification) Regulations 2010 does not mean referral to a coroner is required by virtue of its notifiable status.
Medical practitioners are required to certify causes of death “to the best of their knowledge and belief”. Without diagnostic proof, if appropriate and to avoid delay, medical practitioners can circle ‘2’ in the MCCD (“information from post-mortem may be available later”) or tick Box B on the reverse of the MCCD for ante-mortem investigations. For example, if before death the patient had symptoms typical of COVID- 19 infection, but the test result has not been received, it would be satisfactory to give ‘COVID-19’ as the cause of death, tick Box B and then share the test result when it becomes available

For the purposes of the emergency period, the attendance may be in person, via video/visual consultation, but not audio (e.g. via telephone).

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf[/quote]
Form the article upthread:

"As we know, death certification is a serious professional duty. It is done with diligence and, for deaths in hospital, is usually discussed with a medical examiner (although this step was suspended for a few months10 in the first pandemic wave in early 2020).

The personal and professional consequences of fabricating or distorting certificates would be serious, and there is no mass conspiracy or incentive, financial or otherwise, to do so. Nor is it credible that such a plot would not have been leaked by now via disgruntled whistleblowers."

" why are so many people frightened of covid? "
For me personally it's the fact that a friend in her 40s who was double jabbed died of it barely a month ago. She had an autoimmune condition. My cousin, and a couple other friends have auto immune conditions, and MS is very present in our family. Does that answer your question?

A double vaccinated friend of our family died last week, he was asthmatic but well (as am I). From positive PCR to death in 7 days.

My father died with Covid not of it. It was on his death certificate so I assume contributed to the statistics. He died due to heart failure so yes I do think it matters if all these deaths are recorded as Covid deaths.

[quote FlorenciaFlora]I have serious concerns about these figures.

Many people do not realise that the laws surrounding post-mortems and death registrations have changed. Most people don’t understand what a post Mortem is anyway and why they were required in the first place. They were a type of safeguarding. Prior to COVID nearly everyone who died unexpectedly was referred to the coroner and had a post mortem.

Death registrations and post-mortems became much stricter after Harold shipmen. For good reason.

What these changes mean is that a doctor can decide your relative died of COVID without seeing them and without a positive test. And they can do that via a video call.

The majority of covid deaths occur in elderly people in hospitals and care homes. And they’re not being investigated properly.That is extremely alarming .We know hospitals make mistakes and we know unfortunately how many elderly folk are mistreated in care homes.

When it comes to our vulnerable family members its unacceptable to remove safeguarding or to think, presume or guess their cause of death. And it’s not good enough to do that via video call and use those figures to justify a lockdown.

Many families are rightfully uneasy about their relatives death being put down to covid. Funeral directors who have raised concerns about this have been disciplined.

Referring deaths to the coroner
Covid-19 is an acceptable direct or underlying cause of death for the purposes of completing the Medical Certificate of Cause of Death
Covid-19 is not a reason on its own to refer a death to a coroner under the Coroners and Justice Act 2009.
• That Covid-19 is a notifiable disease under the Health Protection (Notification) Regulations 2010 does not mean referral to a coroner is required by virtue of its notifiable status.
Medical practitioners are required to certify causes of death “to the best of their knowledge and belief”. Without diagnostic proof, if appropriate and to avoid delay, medical practitioners can circle ‘2’ in the MCCD (“information from post-mortem may be available later”) or tick Box B on the reverse of the MCCD for ante-mortem investigations. For example, if before death the patient had symptoms typical of COVID- 19 infection, but the test result has not been received, it would be satisfactory to give ‘COVID-19’ as the cause of death, tick Box B and then share the test result when it becomes available

For the purposes of the emergency period, the attendance may be in person, via video/visual consultation, but not audio (e.g. via telephone).

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf[/quote]
Thank you for posting this.

@Oswina

They count the deaths as dying with COVID if they die after a positive COVID result within 28 days... So test positive for COVID but die of cancer-related issue 20 days later? You get included in the death figures. It's dishonest.

The death could be completely unrelated to COVID, it will still be included in the figures if you had a positive test.

Yes. It is dishonest.

The personal and professional consequences of fabricating or distorting certificates would be serious, and there is no mass conspiracy or incentive, financial or otherwise, to do so. Nor is it credible that such a plot would not have been leaked by now via disgruntled whistleblowers."

I’m not sure why you’re talking about plots or distorting death certificates.

It’s right there in black and white that doctors can put covid as a cause of death without confirming it or even seeing the patient in person.

It’s also right there in black and white that suspected covid deaths are not to be reported to the coroner.

@FlorenciaFlora

The personal and professional consequences of fabricating or distorting certificates would be serious, and there is no mass conspiracy or incentive, financial or otherwise, to do so. Nor is it credible that such a plot would not have been leaked by now via disgruntled whistleblowers."

I’m not sure why you’re talking about plots or distorting death certificates.

It’s right there in black and white that doctors can put covid as a cause of death without confirming it or even seeing the patient in person.

It’s also right there in black and white that suspected covid deaths are not to be reported to the coroner.

That is a quote from the BMJ article above.

The possibility of different processes for death certification was put into place because it looked as though services might be completely overwhelmed back in March 2020 and the aim was to keep things running as well as possible.

There would have been too many covid deaths overwhelming the system to do post mortems on them all; can you not see that?

The personal and professional consequences of fabricating or distorting certificates would be serious, and there is no mass conspiracy or incentive, financial or otherwise, to do so. Nor is it credible that such a plot would not have been leaked by now via disgruntled whistleblower

A doctor who presumes a patient has died of covid without any test or seeing them is not indulging in fabrications, plots or deceptions. He’s simply following the new rules. He is not allowed to report the matter to the coroner.

I don’t think you understand what the old death certifications rules were. I don’t think you understand the new rules. I don’t think you understand that post-mortems offered a level of safeguarding to patients.

Why do you think that this safeguarding process was made law in the first place? Why do you think its now been removed? Why are all deaths investigated but covid deaths aren’t?

I don’t like the word whistleblower. It’s suggestive of someone snitching. But since you’ve mentioned it there has been many people raising concerns about these new rules .Many family members have for instance and they formed groups on social media that were promptly shut down. Many complain to pals and get nowhere.

The biggest concerns have come from funeral directors. They are being kicked out of their professional organisations for raising concerns.

@BluebellsGreenbells

Covid is little more than a cold for some people, and some are asyptomatic

Then those aren’t the hospital admissions or those dying of/with covid

You're wrong. Many many people go to hospital for unrelated issues, and are routinely tested and only then find out they have covid. They may well go on to die of said unrelated condition but with covid.

It's as if people have forgotten that you might be admitted to hospital with something that is not covid.

@FlorenciaFlora

The personal and professional consequences of fabricating or distorting certificates would be serious, and there is no mass conspiracy or incentive, financial or otherwise, to do so. Nor is it credible that such a plot would not have been leaked by now via disgruntled whistleblower

A doctor who presumes a patient has died of covid without any test or seeing them is not indulging in fabrications, plots or deceptions. He’s simply following the new rules. He is not allowed to report the matter to the coroner.

I don’t think you understand what the old death certifications rules were. I don’t think you understand the new rules. I don’t think you understand that post-mortems offered a level of safeguarding to patients.

Why do you think that this safeguarding process was made law in the first place? Why do you think its now been removed? Why are all deaths investigated but covid deaths aren’t?

I don’t like the word whistleblower. It’s suggestive of someone snitching. But since you’ve mentioned it there has been many people raising concerns about these new rules .Many family members have for instance and they formed groups on social media that were promptly shut down. Many complain to pals and get nowhere.

The biggest concerns have come from funeral directors. They are being kicked out of their professional organisations for raising concerns.

Well, I have written out death certificates, and looked after patients previously who were ill with or died from covid, so I have a bit of knowledge in the area.

Do you understand that the words in bold are a quote from the BMJ?

It is from the BMJ article quoted below by Dr David Oliver. I think he has some knowledge (more than me) of looking after patients who are ill or have died with covid.

This is who he is:

"David Oliver FRCP is a British physician specialising in the geriatric medicine and acute general internal medicine. He was President of the British Geriatrics Society from 2014 to 2016. He is Visiting Professor of Medicine for Older People in the School of Community and Health Sciences at City University London and a King's Fund Senior Visiting Fellow. He was formerly the UK Department of Health National Clinical Director for Older People's Services from 2009 to 2013. He is a researcher, writer, teacher and lecturer on services for older people and a regular blogger, columnist and media commentator. He was recently elected as Clinical Vice President of the Royal College of Physicians, London."

And yet, when questioned god knows how many times over the past 18 months, have any of you been able to sensibly respond to the question of "Why would the Government be overinflating numbers intentionally? What is in it for them?"

There would have been too many covid deaths overwhelming the system to do post mortems on them all; can you not see that?

If mortuary’s were overwhelmed it was an extremely ill thought out decision to place some mortuary staff in empty nightingale hospitals.

Taking a covid test from a deceased patient would not have overwhelmed the system. It takes seconds.

@DumplingsAndStew

And yet, when questioned god knows how many times over the past 18 months, have any of you been able to sensibly respond to the question of "Why would the Government be overinflating numbers intentionally? What is in it for them?"

That's what I don't understand ,many people,posters throughout the pandemic have criticized the government and say they have been incompetent etc ,so why would the Government say more people have died than actually have and for what reason ,why the hell would they want to screw up the economy for no reason?

Full fact say vast majority died of covid.
fullfact.org/online/deaths-only-from-coronavirus/

In terms of death certificates, if someone early on died and was not tested, but all their symptoms pointed to covid as did the course of the disease, then, of course, they were recorded as covid deaths.

Also why do you think there were so many excess deaths? Flu and colds and other things have been around for years.

@DumplingsAndStew

And yet, when questioned god knows how many times over the past 18 months, have any of you been able to sensibly respond to the question of "Why would the Government be overinflating numbers intentionally? What is in it for them?"

This

Johnson's protocol has been minimise minimise minimise when it comes to coronavirus. Along with our world beating track and trace/vaccine programme/hospitals.

There is no rationale as to why our corrupt government would exaggerate the risk of the pandemic.