Massive family fallouts over covid

[mywombisfittoburst]

My DM and step father went a bit crazy over Covid last year. Very very OTT, very judgey about anyone "breaking the rules" and both live in fear of catching it, seemingly convinced that if they do they will die.

DS is 14 and doesn't want to be vaccinated. I respect his decision. My DM is going crackers about it. Calling me up, ranting at me that I need to change his mind, trying to emotionally blackmail him - eg "what if he gives to me or DGP and one of us dies" "doesn't he care" "he won't be able to come for Xmas" and so on.

We're basically being made to feel like shit about this and I don't know how to deal with it

[quote Cascascascas]@mywombisfittoburst

You need to convince your dear son.[/quote]
No you don't need to convince him at all! He's already expressed his desire not to be vaccinated, he is concerned about the effect this vaccine will have on his adolescent growing body. Perfectly reasonable concern to have, it should not be dismissed at all, and none of us know if there will be any long term affect on a growing body yet as its too soon to have that information.
If Granny has seen him regularly up to this point, then she is an arse to stop doing so now. He has always been a "risk" it doesn't become higher once people have had chance to be offered a vaccine and declined it, plus Granny will probably be getting a booster around now so she's more protected from dying from covid than she ever has been.
Quite frankly anyone who thinks it's OK to use emotional blackmail or coercion on a child is the dick here! Gillick competence is in place for a reason thankfully.

As for saying he will need to be vaccinated to enjoy social events, he's 14 he won't be going to any nightclubs any time soon. Large events like gigs or football matches do not require u18s to be vaccinated

We don't have covid passports yet so let's not pretend we do, and if he wanted to go abroad to a country with covid passports 1 dose would not class him as fully vaccinated anyway

I think I’m on your mum’s side! I’d be disappointed if someone in my family hadn’t had the vaccine.

@moregarlic

She does know the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission, right?

I can’t believe what covid (or more accurately the governments response and weaponising of fear) has done to so many people.

^ this

I have similar going on in my family - my sister and partner are not getting vaccinated, and nor are my two dds (15 and 17). I am vaccinated and so is my son (19).

My Dad who is in his 80s and lives abroad - also double vaccinated - is frankly being awful to my sister. He hasn’t said much about my two dds but is probably thinking it. He blames my sister for not being able to see us, but actually she lives a very cut off life at this point, works from home and could easily test / isolate before seeing him.

At the other end of the scale, my sister also does nothing but talk about the vaccination and covid. She is deeply distressed by many countries’ move towards removing people’s freedoms - for example in Italy to go to work in any job now you need to show your proof of vaccination or take a PCR tear every two days costing 250 euros a month (I agree that this is distressing).

All of it is really sad.

Test not tear

Sorry I don't get that reasoning, is that advocating for never seeing each other even if they both get 'double jabbed' then?

Yes, i see a lot of this sentiment on here. It's a though some people are both zealously keen for vaccinations whilst simultaneously having little confidence they will work. I can understand this viewpoint if you're immune-suppressed and the vaccine probably has little effect, but otherwise...

If you are elderly, Covid is riskier and the vaccine is less effective. So my dad's double dose of vaccine reduced his risk of death/serious illness to the level that mine was when I (in my mid 40s) was unvaccinated. Individual actions to prevent catching Covid work much better if they are supported by community actions. Given the current rates of Covid among teenagers, I'd be wary of spending time indoors with unvaccinated teenagers right now if avoiding Covid was a priority for me and I had the option to do so.

But I don't think either of your relatives is wrong, really.

Of course your son has a right not to get vaccinated, but that comes with the consequence that some people will choose not to be around him for their safety and will feel hurt by his decision not to take an action which could help keep them safe.

And of course your mum has the right to choose to avoid contact with people who are at high risk of spreading Covid, but that comes with the consequence that she will miss out on seeing some people she cares about, and that they will feel hurt by her decision to put a fairly low risk of serious harm over their relationship.

She shouldn't be nagging and guilt tripping your son, but you should probably also respect her choices and work around the boundaries that she sets, eg meeting outdoors, keeping in contact by phone etc.

@changeyourname11111

In Italy it's an LFT, not a PCR for the Green Pass and they cost €8. You can also obtain a Green Pass by vaccination (obviously) or with a letter of recovery. LFTs are free if you cannot be vaccinated. You don't need to show your "proof of vaccination" but your Green Pass.
Thankfully, vaccine take up is high and the pop up LFT tents (you're not allowed to do them yourselves here,) are slowly starting to be fewer.
66% in favour of Green Passes
22% neutral
12% against.
The vocal minority protest at the weekends, not sure what will happen this weekend after the last one where it was discovered that the protests were being orchestrated by the far right Forza Nuova group. Leaders now arrested after being filmed directing the rioting.

@moregarlic
'She does know the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission, right?'

Untrue. The vaccine greatly reduces the risk of transmission.

I'm really sick of people spreading BS.

OP, if I was your DM I'd be disappointed in your son as well. The unvaccinated are absolutely entitled to make their choices but they have to live with the consequences.

Whether LFT or PCR (my sister says her friend has had to take the PCR test - I am going to ask her again) - the fact remains that her friend is having to pay 250 euros a month. Costs may vary regionally etc.

I take your point that the Green Pass is not proof of vaccination, but making it economically difficult for people to go to work is effectively making vaccination mandatory by stealth. My sister’s friend and others are not rebellious “antivaxers” or far right protestors, just people who don’t want this particular vaccination.

If a similar Green Pass was introduced here there would be an outcry against it.

(And if some people are having to pay 120 euros a month and not 250, that’s also an amount they may not be able to afford).

[quote DifferentHair]@moregarlic
'She does know the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission, right?'

Untrue. The vaccine greatly reduces the risk of transmission.

I'm really sick of people spreading BS.

OP, if I was your DM I'd be disappointed in your son as well. The unvaccinated are absolutely entitled to make their choices but they have to live with the consequences.

[/quote]
Surely though you are both saying the same thing?

Saying that it lowers transmission is also saying that it doesn't stop transmission - it lowers it.

@changeyourname11111

Whether LFT or PCR (my sister says her friend has had to take the PCR test - I am going to ask her again) - the fact remains that her friend is having to pay 250 euros a month. Costs may vary regionally etc.

I take your point that the Green Pass is not proof of vaccination, but making it economically difficult for people to go to work is effectively making vaccination mandatory by stealth. My sister’s friend and others are not rebellious “antivaxers” or far right protestors, just people who don’t want this particular vaccination.

If a similar Green Pass was introduced here there would be an outcry against it.

There probably would be an outcry, but as the figures show, 66% of Italians are happy with the system. Positivity as of 21/10 was 0.7% on just under 600,000 daily tests carried out. Nobody is talking about further restrictions being introduced. The vaccination "culture" in Italy is different though from the go get. There are already mandatory school vaccinations for example.

@changeyourname11111

(And if some people are having to pay 120 euros a month and not 250, that’s also an amount they may not be able to afford).

They decided not to be vaccinated. Which of course was free. Hard to find any sympathy.

@tigger1001

It stops many transmissions. It does not stop any and all transmissions.

The same way wearing a seatbelt is still a sensible thing to do even though it does not completely eliminate your chance of being injured in a car accident.

The language matters here because if this thread proves anything, most people aren't capable of dissecting the nuance and people are making decisions that increase the risk of harm to themselves and others based off nonsense uninformed blanket statements being made online.

[quote DifferentHair]@tigger1001

It stops many transmissions. It does not stop any and all transmissions.

The same way wearing a seatbelt is still a sensible thing to do even though it does not completely eliminate your chance of being injured in a car accident.

The language matters here because if this thread proves anything, most people aren't capable of dissecting the nuance and people are making decisions that increase the risk of harm to themselves and others based off nonsense uninformed blanket statements being made online. [/quote]
I don't disagree.

But to say it's bullshit when someone says it doesn't stop transmission is also bullshit. You both agree that the vaccine doesn't stop transmission. She wasn't wrong nor spreading misinformation. Both of what you said was correct.

So why not just say yes it doesn't stop transmission (people need to know that too. Far too many still see the vaccine as some kind of silver bullet) but it does lower it?

@tigger1001

It stops many transmissions. Those transmissions are stopped.

'It doesn't stop transmissions' as a blanket statement is BS. It's not true. it is extremely misleading when it is whipped out like a 'gotcha' in a discussion about the risk caused by circulating with unvaccinated people. Which is why I choose to call it 'bs' instead of of parsing with someone who is trying to spread misinformation.

Helmets don't stop all head injuries. Sunscreen doesn't prevent all sunburn. Traffic lights don't stop all accidents.

But-

Helmets prevent many head injuries.
Sunscreen reduces sun damage.
Traffic lights make the roads a lot safer and prevent fatalities.

Saying otherwise is bullshit. Sorry 🤷‍♀️

But it doesn't stop transmission - it lowers it! That's the factually correct statement.

Calling bullshit on someone who says it doesn't stop transmission (which in itself is a correct statement) just makes you look petty.

My mum had a similar dilemma. My youngest sibling (18) does not want the vaccination - her choice! My mum was supportive of this as was my gran and other immediate family etc!

Some other elderly relatives who she barely sees (aunt and uncle) visited unexpectedly, got onto the conversation of vaccination and called her selfish for not wanting it and protecting the elderly... claiming that all their grandkids have had it to protect them etc.

The elderly should be fully vaccinated if they can and want to be and can get the booster. If the vaccination worked that well then they won't have to worry because they will be protected.

Also, surely they know by now that the vaccination doesn't work the virus, it just minimises the symptoms.

I'm fully jabbed and glad I am but I won't be getting my kids vaccinated for a while yet if they do approve for younger children. I'm not against it, would just be too soon for me. Thankfully I don't have teenagers.

@tigger1001 it is factually correct to say it lowers transmissions.

It is factually correct to say it does not stop all and every transmission.

It is factually incorrect (aka bs) to say it doesn't stop them, when in many instances, as you agree, it does.

If you honestly don't have enough grasp of the words to wrap your head around the difference then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Have a great day.

I think both sides are fair. Your son doesn't want the vaccine, your in laws don't want to risk getting covid. Both are fine and can reach a compromise. It's fair that if you want to see in laws and not been vaccinated that precautions are taken, and a negative LTF wouldn't go amiss. If they are happy with accepting that that's great. If not then no you won't be visiting.

[quote DifferentHair]@tigger1001 it is factually correct to say it lowers transmissions.

It is factually correct to say it does not stop all and every transmission.

It is factually incorrect (aka bs) to say it doesn't stop them, when in many instances, as you agree, it does.

If you honestly don't have enough grasp of the words to wrap your head around the difference then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Have a great day. [/quote]
Boris himself actually said yesterday that the double jabs don't protect you against catching covid or passing it on

Are they making it up as they go along?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=qsQ5ruBG8Hc

@Lullaby88

I understand her anxieties as if she's in an older age bracket there is a higher chance of her being hospitalised vaccinated or not. I know few people who were double jabbed and who got really sick and someone in my area unfortunately passed away even after being double jabbed it might have been a rare case but it can happen. He might have had underlying health issues though don't really know if there was more to it. But it shocked the community. Ur son has a right to refuse the vaccine also as it's his body and his decision. So ul have to respect and empathise in this situation. Its just a very sad situation. What if u all had a PCR test before u visited at Xmas would that reassure ur Mum?

Out of 51,000 COVID deaths, only 256 died after double vaccination

Why is a medical decision being left to a minor to decide? OP, you are the parent! You decide

That's not how it works in UK law Pumpkins. An under-18 who is deemed to know their own mind and understand the issues has autonomy over their own body. And beside, in practical terms how exactly would you propose a school goes about injecting a 14 year old who doesn't want them to stick a needle in their arm?