Massive family fallouts over covid

[mywombisfittoburst]

My DM and step father went a bit crazy over Covid last year. Very very OTT, very judgey about anyone "breaking the rules" and both live in fear of catching it, seemingly convinced that if they do they will die.

DS is 14 and doesn't want to be vaccinated. I respect his decision. My DM is going crackers about it. Calling me up, ranting at me that I need to change his mind, trying to emotionally blackmail him - eg "what if he gives to me or DGP and one of us dies" "doesn't he care" "he won't be able to come for Xmas" and so on.

We're basically being made to feel like shit about this and I don't know how to deal with it

I think it’s a good lesson in consequences.
He’s decided not to have a vaccine, the consequence of that is his grandparents don’t feel safe around him. Another consequence could be not being able to go to certain venues etc. That’s his choice and those are the consequences.

It’s not worth arguing who is right and who is wrong.

My ds doesn’t want it and if that meant someone didn’t want to see him that’s their problem they wouldn’t be seeing the rest of us either.

If it means granny’s alone at Christmas (or in this case with her dp) that’s her choice. Just as it’s my choice to respect my child’s right to give their own consent over a vaccination. My child is higher up on my priority list than my parents.

It’s not informed consent if your forced into it.

I do not currently have a teenager and it was a while ago that I was one so I am probably a bit out the loop.

However, according to the NHS website at age 14 children are due to have their 3-in-1 teenage booster administered via the school vaccine program.

I am curious to know if everyone gave there teens the right to reject that vaccine or if this autonomy is specific to the Covid vaccine?

He’s decided not to have a vaccine, the consequence of that is his grandparents don’t feel safe around him. Another consequence could be not being able to go to certain venues etc. That’s his choice and those are the consequences.

OP hasn’t said her child has an issue with the consequences. My kids haven’t either. If anyone doesn’t want to see them cos of it, they’re fine with that. It’s unlikely they won’t be able to go to venues, maybe they’ll have to do a test at some point if that’s brought in, which they’ll happily do.

If I was him I’d be relieved not to have to see them with their ranting and clearly fucked up attitude to this...they’ve been happy to have contact with him unvaccinated when he didn’t have the option of the vaccine, now he does and he’s choosing not to have it, his danger level has gone up and they’re ranting. 🙄 I mean, they can do what they want, but it doesn’t make much sense. And they are definitely wrong to try to guilt him into something. They don’t care if he gets it, just themselves....they’re not coming across well. Lucky escape for a while I reckon.

Your ds sounds like a young man with a good head.... My ds 12 is adamant he won't have the jab as it will turn him into a zombie... Although no data to support his theory surprisingly.. Until I get The Text we haven't really discussed it with our 3 younger teens. Ds 17 has had his first one. His choice...

I am curious to know if everyone gave there teens the right to reject that vaccine or if this autonomy is specific to the Covid vaccine?

Of course. It’s their choice once they’re teens. Same for hpv jab, it’s their choice.

its not informed consent if your forced into it

No ones forcing anyone. Just that choices have consequences further than the vaccine risk or covid risk.

I think open and honest discussion with teens (and all) is good. Finding proper data, actual research weighing up pros and cons not the bull shit the anti vaxers are chanting outside schools, not Facebook, not anecdotal. Evidence based research

On the "it doesn't stop transmission" vs "it greatly reduces transmission"

Both are true.

But the problem with them both being true is that anyone can have Covid, so really vaccination status is irrelevant in all of this.

So it's not an irrelevant mantra to say "it doesn't stop transmission"

Just true.

And people obsessing about other's vaccination status is absolutely driven by irrational fear and trying to feel like they have some control over something that is scary to them.

If I was your DM I'd choose not to see him and leave it at that.

@thinkhorsesnotzebra 14 year olds make decisions at school about all their jabs, they are not vaccinated against their will. Their parents are asked if they consent, then the child consents on the day, that's the way it is in the UK. Usually peer pressure takes hold! If the gov't had organized 12-18 vaccination a few months earlier, systematically, and delivered 2 doses, like so many countries, then most would have had it. Now they are getting a dog's dinner of one dose which probably won't be enough to travel vaccinated, plus so many of them have had covid many now prefer natural immunity (which actually the data tells us is better). Mine both have had covid, so have natural immunity for a while, though may vaccinate if they want to later on.

You have to accept that different households need to follow different rules.

As a CEV household, it would be pretty devastating if a close family member chose not to get vaccinated. We would have to respect that, though we would not see them. (And no, we haven’t been visiting with children too young for the vaccine. It’s been wonderful as more family has become eligible)

Tell your mother you will not engage in any further conversations on this topic and she is not to approach your child with this. It is entirely her choice if she prefers not to see him

@CodeMode

He’s decided not to have a vaccine, the consequence of that is his grandparents don’t feel safe around him. Another consequence could be not being able to go to certain venues etc. That’s his choice and those are the consequences.

OP hasn’t said her child has an issue with the consequences. My kids haven’t either. If anyone doesn’t want to see them cos of it, they’re fine with that. It’s unlikely they won’t be able to go to venues, maybe they’ll have to do a test at some point if that’s brought in, which they’ll happily do.

If I was him I’d be relieved not to have to see them with their ranting and clearly fucked up attitude to this...they’ve been happy to have contact with him unvaccinated when he didn’t have the option of the vaccine, now he does and he’s choosing not to have it, his danger level has gone up and they’re ranting. 🙄 I mean, they can do what they want, but it doesn’t make much sense. And they are definitely wrong to try to guilt him into something. They don’t care if he gets it, just themselves....they’re not coming across well. Lucky escape for a while I reckon.

I think you’re missing the whole point of a vaccination programme for any disease in saying they don’t care whether he gets it just themselves. Actually that is sort of the point around how vaccination works. It is not, and never was, about protecting the person who gets the vaccine as an individual, it is about protecting society as a whole. It only works if the vast majority or the whole population has it. It slows transmission rates and makes the diseases less severe in the majority of people who get vaccinated. That way it sort of puts fire walls up in society to slow the spread and eventually transmission will die out. It doesn’t work if it is a sort of opt in or out dependant on your own personal risk assessment. So, yes the grandparents are right to be concerned about all unvaccinated people as this does increase theirs, and everyone else’s risk of infection. Children are some of the biggest group of carriers, even if they aren’t getting particularly sick in most cases. Unless we can get transmission in this pool of population down significantly through vaccination the risk of lockdowns, isolation etc will drag on for years.
It is a crying shame (literally on the 250 deaths currently) that teenagers and others refusing vaccination can’t get their heads around the ethics of this and take pride in doing their part to enable society to move on without all these restrictions

I saw details from Royal Papworth that 82% of those hospitalised with covid were unvaccinated.

It doesn't work though and might affect a growing body...whatever that means. Air pollution kills 40 thousand a year and affects growing bodies so crack on.

@Iwonder08

Tell your mother you will not engage in any further conversations on this topic and she is not to approach your child with this. It is entirely her choice if she prefers not to see him

Surely it's his choice that he's choosing not to protect her? Very unfair for the one choosing not to protect the more vulnerable being privileged.

Children are some of the biggest group of carriers, even if they aren’t getting particularly sick in most cases. Unless we can get transmission in this pool of population down significantly through vaccination the risk of lockdowns, isolation etc will drag on for years

Well, most have natural immunity now, at least for a while. This is very much shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted, the time for vaccination was 6 months ago before practically every child in the country got it. The science says natural immunity is quite good actually so this isn't as much of a disaster as it could have been but the older generations are paying the price for more covid circulating.

There is usually a principle in medicine where you don't do things that don't benefit the patient- usually vaccinations do benefit the patient as they stop them getting a nasty disease, but in this case it's unclear the benefits are so straightforward given how mild it is for most children.

Herd immunity, asking others to take a slight risk (which vaccination represents) so you can be less at risk is also selfish. I think it's fine for young people to weigh up their own personal benefit vs personal risk, that's what most people are doing when they encourage young people to get vaccinated- weighing up their own selfish personal risk against the risk to the young person.

I am very pro-vaccination for teen but he is perfectly capable of making his own decision and no matter what his grandparents think its his to make.

I'd take a big step back from your parents and support your son's decision. Consent has to be given freely and that's the absolute that you need to support no matter what you think of his decision.

@thinkhorsesnotzebra

I do not currently have a teenager and it was a while ago that I was one so I am probably a bit out the loop.

However, according to the NHS website at age 14 children are due to have their 3-in-1 teenage booster administered via the school vaccine program.

I am curious to know if everyone gave there teens the right to reject that vaccine or if this autonomy is specific to the Covid vaccine?

In my house all medical decisions are based on informed consent. If my children didn't want a vaccination then we would have a conversation around why as I would want to know it was an informed choice. But if it was, then yes I would support their decision with regards to any vaccination.

Informed consent is so important and their views very much do come into it. I have made it very clear to them both that as long as they are aware of the pros and cons of their decision then I would fully support their decision.

I don't want them to be scared to tell me their views, even if I disagree. Their body, their choice.

Ridiculous! Fear of the vaccine? She’s ok to do what she wants and they are supposed to understand but not the afforded the same bodily autonomy? And you think she should be able to emotionally blackmail a 14 yr old?

No, I'm saying that the risk of covid to her mother is far, far higher than the risk of the vaccine to a healthy 14-year old.

The last study I saw reported myocarditis (of any sort) for this age group was roughly 40 per million, largely mild, and no deaths in the total population. (Fwiw, the risk of myocarditis after Covid infection is roughly 30 times higher.)

In the 65-75 age range in England, the most recent hospitalization rate from covid was roughly 100 per million, with 120 deaths; for the next age bracket, it's about 200 per million and 160 deaths. I assume the death rate is now higher, as these numbers were from a couple weeks ago.

So, yeah, fear of the vaccine in teens is far more irrational than fear of a 65+ person catching covid.

The grandparents are worried they will die or become seriously ill. Your son thinks it won't affect him so he's doesn't want the vaccine. Different perspectives dependant on individual chance of dying or being ill. Understandable. With growing cases their fear is growing.

Thing is without herd immunity it will go on and on. Perhaps it's best they don't see each other or only if he wears a mask and stays a distance away. He has the right to say no vaccine and they have the right to say don't come for Christmas etc.

Dartfordwarblerautumn

Lol. Thanks for the (very basic) lecture. 😂

The point is, the teen has made the decision. His mum supports him. Granny is now ranting and putting a guilt trip on them. That’s unacceptable. That’s all.

@Dartfordwarblerautumn

What in god's name are you on about? Vaccination is protection for the person vaccinated. The flu vaccine, for eg, has always been primarily for over 50s in this country until recently (apart from in the healthcare/care sector). No fourteen year-old should be compelled to be injected with anything for someone else's sake.

@REDHERO

The grandparents are worried they will die or become seriously ill. Your son thinks it won't affect him so he's doesn't want the vaccine. Different perspectives dependant on individual chance of dying or being ill. Understandable. With growing cases their fear is growing.

Thing is without herd immunity it will go on and on. Perhaps it's best they don't see each other or only if he wears a mask and stays a distance away. He has the right to say no vaccine and they have the right to say don't come for Christmas etc.

Herd immunity isn't happening with this virus. Highly vaccinated Iceland's health authority learned and said as much.

I suppose the government’s behavioural psychologists have done the job they planned to do.
The level of fear that they have created have sadly caused so many poor people to have such terrible fear and anxiety. Your in laws need to try and think more logically.