Massive family fallouts over covid

[mywombisfittoburst]

My DM and step father went a bit crazy over Covid last year. Very very OTT, very judgey about anyone "breaking the rules" and both live in fear of catching it, seemingly convinced that if they do they will die.

DS is 14 and doesn't want to be vaccinated. I respect his decision. My DM is going crackers about it. Calling me up, ranting at me that I need to change his mind, trying to emotionally blackmail him - eg "what if he gives to me or DGP and one of us dies" "doesn't he care" "he won't be able to come for Xmas" and so on.

We're basically being made to feel like shit about this and I don't know how to deal with it

My mil keeps phoning to give me "her view" on the vaccination of teenagers.
I really don't think it's a discussion for wider family.
My teens haven't been offered it yet, but after discussion they don't wish to be vaccinated right now.
I think your mother needs to be aware that it is a medical decision for your child.

I hear what everyone is saying about a 14 year old giving consent. And I am definitely not one for helicopter parenting, but….
A 14 year old has limited experienced and heavily influenced by his mates and social media and I’d being doing a damn sight more to insist that he has a vaccine.( e.g. withdraw privileges that come with being a responsible teenager)
Far more intelligent and experienced people then him have reviewed the evidence from epidemiological studies on a large population to decide it is worth the cost vs risk to inoculate children. When he is an adult he can make decision like that for himself. Right now he is a child and you are responsible for his health and welfare. As much as anything if he does get sick it will be you and your partner needing to taking time off work unpaid to look after him. His mates and social media aren’t going to do that. The NHS is going into another crisis this winter already, waiting lists are appalling and if the NHS becomes overwhelmed needlessly those waiting lists will grow for years which could well impact your son, you and your family. GPs are still struggling- why should his views be more informed or clever than the hundreds of medical experts around the world saying that vaccination will prevent most people becoming unwell enough to need medical intervention.
For goodness sake, His scientific analysis of “plenty of his friends have had it and been fine” does not work as a population overall- he and his mates are not the only people in the world . There are huge numbers of people in his age group . Even if 1% only of those get bad symptoms that is still a very large number of unnecessary (in most cases) ill young people . Statistically he may not have mates who have become ill enough to need treatment - he would, based on the probability, need to talk to 100 plus of them to probably find one of them who got really ill.
As with all vaccination if people stop thinking in terms about just them or them and their immediate acquaintances, where the risk of not vaccinating seems small. You, he, and everyone who uses this argument need to start thinking more about the overall population and probability - a small percentage of a very large number is still a very large number of “excess” illness.
Your mother’s personal risk assessment may or may not be over the top. But actually the bigger issue here is parents who want to uphold their CHILDS “rights” to autonomy and not tell their kids that vaccination programs are not about whether their selfish little teenage minds want to do or not based on their relationship with their mates - teenagers are selfish by design …stop winging and get it done. Jeez, I assume he knows he’s been vaccinated for a whole bunch of other things he and his mates have never had or heard of?

My MIL seems obsessed that my 12 year old will give her covid and she will die …she hasn’t seen me or the kids since Xmas 2019.

What drives me mad is that she has been happily going out for meals, Zumba classes, in & out of peoples houses, cinema BUT the only person she could possibly get covid from is my 12 year old.

Due to reactions to previous vaccines we are very nervous for her having it (usually she has to be in a hospital environment to be jabbed) we are waiting to hear back from the GP as to whether it’s ok. My MiL is already mumbling that she won’t see her but happy to see the rest of us - no!

Interesting to read this debate bc I have similar situation. I want my son to be jabbed but am not forcing issue as he has to make decision himself and I can’t force him obviously. My private opinion is that refusing the jab (he’s 18 so slightly different scenario) is not sensible. However I have to live with his decision. My DPs are also elderly and concerned about xmas. I love ds and dps with all my heart - don’t want dps to feel secret fear and dread while feeling they want to be with us. It’s so difficult.

@EvilPea

People have lost their minds

People are scared. That’s all. Scared.

With all due respect, if people are that scared. They really shouldn’t be relying on vaccination.

Those of us in the real world can see it’s not doing a lot with zero mitigation. Yet the same people think it’s ok to let it rip through teachers and schools. No sympathy from me I’m afraid.

Well said, Dartfordwarblerautumn!

@Dartfordwarblerautumn

I hear what everyone is saying about a 14 year old giving consent. And I am definitely not one for helicopter parenting, but…. A 14 year old has limited experienced and heavily influenced by his mates and social media and I’d being doing a damn sight more to insist that he has a vaccine.( e.g. withdraw privileges that come with being a responsible teenager) Far more intelligent and experienced people then him have reviewed the evidence from epidemiological studies on a large population to decide it is worth the cost vs risk to inoculate children. When he is an adult he can make decision like that for himself. Right now he is a child and you are responsible for his health and welfare. As much as anything if he does get sick it will be you and your partner needing to taking time off work unpaid to look after him. His mates and social media aren’t going to do that. The NHS is going into another crisis this winter already, waiting lists are appalling and if the NHS becomes overwhelmed needlessly those waiting lists will grow for years which could well impact your son, you and your family. GPs are still struggling- why should his views be more informed or clever than the hundreds of medical experts around the world saying that vaccination will prevent most people becoming unwell enough to need medical intervention. For goodness sake, His scientific analysis of “plenty of his friends have had it and been fine” does not work as a population overall- he and his mates are not the only people in the world . There are huge numbers of people in his age group . Even if 1% only of those get bad symptoms that is still a very large number of unnecessary (in most cases) ill young people . Statistically he may not have mates who have become ill enough to need treatment - he would, based on the probability, need to talk to 100 plus of them to probably find one of them who got really ill. As with all vaccination if people stop thinking in terms about just them or them and their immediate acquaintances, where the risk of not vaccinating seems small. You, he, and everyone who uses this argument need to start thinking more about the overall population and probability - a small percentage of a very large number is still a very large number of “excess” illness. Your mother’s personal risk assessment may or may not be over the top. But actually the bigger issue here is parents who want to uphold their CHILDS “rights” to autonomy and not tell their kids that vaccination programs are not about whether their selfish little teenage minds want to do or not based on their relationship with their mates - teenagers are selfish by design …stop winging and get it done. Jeez, I assume he knows he’s been vaccinated for a whole bunch of other things he and his mates have never had or heard of?

I agree with gist but try applying it to a stubborn teen. You can’t carry a six foot lad down to the vax centre against their will and reasoned discussion is not teens’ forte! You have to preserve the channel of communication with your teen at the same time as expressing your views to them. It’s not a straightforward situation. I bloody wish it was I can tell you!

A child choosing not to be vaccinated is something you can't control, but him attending family events is something you can.

A lot of older people with covid did die, and many people of all ages are getting long Covid. Every developed country bar the US and UK is being far stricter on keeping some control over outbreaks. He makes his choices, as do we all, but if he doesn't want to get vaccinated then it's absolutely reasonable for him to be the one to miss out on family Christmas, not his grandparents. Same goes for other events where there may be a risk, and I'd also hope that he'd be happy to do a lateral flow any time he's going somewhere with more transmission risk or more vulnerable people, whether that's a big social event or a visit to the GP.

@UnRavellingFast I'd think the same applies - your 18 year old chooses not to vaccinate, he misses Christmas, not fair to your parents to be the ones feeling dread.

I agree with Dartfordwarblermum.

While you can't force a decision on a young person, you can indicate that their decisions have consequences.

For example, you might decide it was reasonable not to drive a young unvaccinated person to indoor social events where there was a high risk of spreading infection. - because you felt it wasn't responsible to be potentially involved in facilitating the spread of Covid.

If a young person is mature enough to make these decisions, they should also be young enough to accept the consequences. (Though as parents you'd still leave food outside his bedroom door when he was isolating through illenss.)

I had this argument with my sibling over her kids and vaccinating.

In my mind in years to come the covid vaccine will just be included in the half a dozen or more vaccines kids receive as babies and there isn't the same furore over those....in fact the majority of those vaccines are given not necessarily to protect that child but the ones in the community who can't have it due to medical reasons.

He is 14 not 18. He should be having the vaccine. Most kids that age hate injections and will just say no irrespective of the reasons why they are being offered it

And as we are all aware vaccine proof is already required for children over 12 in some countries if you want to holiday there

@MrsEricBana

Conversely, as someone who is double jabbed yet has just been very unwell with covid but not hospitalised, I see her point.

Which surely just proves that even if OP’s DS is vaccinated against his will, he could still catch it and transmit it to his grandmother?

My DD was very happy to have the jab as she spent most of the summer in isolation as myself & DP had covid one after the other and were fully jabbed. It was an awful time and DP did need an ambulance despite being really fit and prone to practising underwater free diving breathing techniques. It was an awful feeling for DD as she was the only unvaccinated person in the household at that time and she felt very vulnerable. I think it gave her a different perspective. We were extremely careful and she never caught it thankfully.

Good discussion here which I’m finding helpful.

@honeygriff

My DD was very happy to have the jab as she spent most of the summer in isolation as myself & DP had covid one after the other and were fully jabbed. It was an awful time and DP did need an ambulance despite being really fit and prone to practising underwater free diving breathing techniques. It was an awful feeling for DD as she was the only unvaccinated person in the household at that time and she felt very vulnerable. I think it gave her a different perspective. We were extremely careful and she never caught it thankfully.

And that’s great, it was her decision. She’s made hers, and the OP’s DS had made his.

Your mother has the right to make choices about how she protects her health. Everyone has this right.

What she can't do is tell others how they should protect their health.

If she decides protecting her health means she can't have your son visit her, then that's her right. Bonkers, but still.

I'd explain to her that you are making decisions for your family and offer (if your son is willing) to do a lateral flow test before visiting.

Then remind her about personal choice.

The government has made a big deal of teens having the right to decide for themselves. If your mil wants to rant, she should aim her complaints to the government, who think that children should be allowed to make their own medical choices over what their parents think is the best course of action.
Teenagers can't really give informed consent about this vaccine since even the experts are of two minds as to whether there is any real benefit to the teens themselves. No one should be forced to have a vaccine to benefit other people more than themselves. Not when there are risks, esp for teenage boys. The risk might be tiny but it still exists.
Unless your mil is living in isolation, she's being ridiculous to lay all the responsibility on your son, when she is likely mixing with loads of people in the community who have Covid/are not immunised. Id be really cross at all the emotional blackmail tbh.

He doesn't want the vaccination because to his mind plenty of his friends have had it and have been fine, whereas he's not convinced about the long term proof of the effect of the vaccine on growing bodies. He won't enter into further discussion about it and I can't force him to.

Absolutely his choice @mywombisfittoburst

However, regardless of his choice around vaccination, I'd be very concerned about his refusal to have a sensible conversation or to engage with scientific evidence.

A stubborn and dogmatic attitude doesn't often confer success

@Bromeliad

The vaccine does partially stop transmission. I wish people would stop saying it doesn't. The problem at fist was that they don't know by how much not that they didn't think it would at all. People got the wrong end of the stick and now quote this nonsense all the time.

It's not clear how effective it is against Delta transmission but again it definitely stops some transmission.

I hope you don't mind me quoting this, as it can't be said enough times.

"Doesn't stop you catching covid". It's like a mantra to some people and isn't even a true picture.

I'm totally with the grandparents on this.

If you're going to make a stand you have to live with the consequences. Your son's decision does impact on others. That's the point of a community

If you believe he is doing the right thing, are you mitigating the risks to the Grandparents. Eg. Mask up, meet outside , LFT prior to visiting?

However, regardless of his choice around vaccination, I'd be very concerned about his refusal to have a sensible conversation or to engage with scientific evidence.

He’s given his reason, he’s obviously had a sensible conversation with his mum. He doesn’t have to keep talking about it or prove anything to anyone. I think some people want to keep going on at kids until they come around to the idea of having it and nothing else is good enough.

My kids have decided not to have it. They can change their minds if they wish. They are healthy kids so I’m not bothered if they have it or not, they’ll most likely be fine with or without the vaccine so I left it for them to decide. They don’t need to keep engaging in conversation about it and justifying their decision.
If they miss out on family events or anything else due to their choice, then they’ll have to deal with it.

how sad that your son won't get the vaccine. His decision, he has to live with the consequences. Such a shame that it'll also have such an impact on his family. I'd be so ashamed if my son came out with such nonsensical reasons too.

@frazzledali I'd feel very sorry for your children, having a mother who doesn't let them make their own decisions, despite them living in a democracy.

@frazzledali you would be ashamed of your child make a reasoned decision about their health?
You don't have to agree with it, but as the benefit for vaccination of this age group is not clear cut it is reasonable for children to make this decision.
It is unreasonable for grandparents to pressure them to make medical decisions for others benefit.

My family have no idea if my teen/adult dc are vaccinated or not.