Covid vaccine passport. It’s going ahead.

[Penfield]

According to another thread on here anyway.

Has anyone else heard this?

On the other thread it sounds as if it will be in 2 weeks time.

@Penfield

Thank you for explaining *@ollyollyoxenfree*

But I disagree with your explanation.

No problem.

If you disagree with

Yup, I explained the limitations of both vaccines and tests in terms of preventing onward transmission. However, the fact that there are limitations (i.e., vaccines do not prevent 100% of infections, tests are not 100% sensitive), does not mean they are useless - this seems to be a common misconception. On a population level, they reduce transmission even though they might not for a specific individual.

Why don't you explain why?

Well- the passport won't make any difference because LF tests and PCR tests are getting so many people wrongly diagnosed and vaccines aren't stopping the spread.

You say they are. I say they're not. We disagree. You've explained. I've explained. What more is there to say?

I also disagree that vaccines are reducing the spread.

There’s enough threads on these boards with countless double vaccinated posters saying they have caught it.

Vaccines appear to have reduced hospitalisations and deaths and as this was the goal, job done without the need for a ‘vaccine status certificate’.

IF there was any case at all for any restrictions it should be on those who are most likely to put the NHS at risk.

Ollyollyoxenfree, you said...

You are significantly less likely to be infected with COVID if vaccinated, and therefore cannot pass it on.

But on the other thread you argued that no-one ever claimed that vaccines prevented transmission.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it. Please make up your mind what your actual opinion is.

@MitheringMytryl

I certainly hope it's true.

I'm in Australia and we've opened our borders to vaccinated people.

No, we haven't.

@IncredulousOne

Ollyollyoxenfree, you said...

You are significantly less likely to be infected with COVID if vaccinated, and therefore cannot pass it on.

But on the other thread you argued that no-one ever claimed that vaccines prevented transmission.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it. Please make up your mind what your actual opinion is.

The word prevented is the same as stopped ie it implies 100% Vaccines aren't 100% But they do reduce transmission

Jesus this is so basic

"populations with high vaccination rates such as Israel"

I've seen few people saying Israel has high vaccination rates recently to talk about vaccine efficacy(or lack of), but it's actually lower than UK now at 64. 25% vs 65.88%.
ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

sleepwouldbenice

On the graph below you can see that there’s not a huge difference in cases before and after the vaccine and also immunity from infections could be making as much difference:

When you resort to personal attacks you have already lost your argument.

[quote Megistotherium]"populations with high vaccination rates such as Israel"

I've seen few people saying Israel has high vaccination rates recently to talk about vaccine efficacy(or lack of), but it's actually lower than UK now at 64. 25% vs 65.88%.
ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations[/quote]
Because you're now classed as unvaccinated if you've only had 2 jabs in Israel

^ Yes, they're constantly moving the goalposts...

Hope all the double-vaxxed pro-jab contingent on here are looking forward to being classed as unvaxxed unless they get their 6-monthly booster.

@userperuser

sleepwouldbenice

On the graph below you can see that there’s not a huge difference in cases before and after the vaccine and also immunity from infections could be making as much difference:

When you resort to personal attacks you have already lost your argument.

Except you're comparing apples and oranges in that graph as one peak is for the alpha variant and the other is for the delta variant, which is a much more contagious virus.

@confuseddotcom090 That's not true, if you look at the data on the country, it states absolute number of people who had 1st and second doses. Nothing about boosters.

ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=~ISR

@userperuser

sleepwouldbenice

On the graph below you can see that there’s not a huge difference in cases before and after the vaccine and also immunity from infections could be making as much difference:

When you resort to personal attacks you have already lost your argument.

So you are totally still ignoring the fact that yiu are comparing periods of lock down to periods when we have more freedoms now then any time from March 20

So if infection rates are similar, and restrictions are completely different, but it’s nothing to do with vaccines right🙄. And I did say other factors would also help.

Wow just incredible

@sleepwouldbenice

"The word prevented is the same as stopped ie it implies 100%
Vaccines aren't 100%
But they do reduce transmission"

Yes, prevented does mean stopped.
But no, it does not imply 100% efficacy.

To illustrate the point for you:

I would agree that the jabs have prevented some transmission.

I would not agree that the jabs have prevented all transmission.

If anyone reading those two sentences can understand both of them and understand that they mean different things, then it clearly demonstrates that the use of "prevented" on its own does not imply 100%.

Which is is why your mate Olly was wrong to claim "no one ever said the jabs prevented transmission".

Oh, and next time, please try to be a little less condescending

@IncredulousOne

Ollyollyoxenfree, you said...

You are significantly less likely to be infected with COVID if vaccinated, and therefore cannot pass it on.

But on the other thread you argued that no-one ever claimed that vaccines prevented transmission.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it. Please make up your mind what your actual opinion is.

For the (millionth) time, I never claimed that vaccines stop 100% of transmission.

No one with a basic understand of science, immunology or vaccines would ever claim this, given we have many comparable vaccines & viruses to use as examples.

This is just yet another one of your misunderstandings where you've got confused.

It makes zero sense because vaccinated people can still get Covid. My 80 year old double jabbed nan went to Cornwall with 3 double jabbed friends. They all have Covid they have since passed it to their double jabbed husbands and it’s now been passed to my double jabbed auntie and uncle. This isn’t rare “breakthrough” cases this is everyone they come into contact with catching Covid. Therefore what’s the point???

Good. It's about bloody time.

@userperuser

sleepwouldbenice

On the graph below you can see that there’s not a huge difference in cases before and after the vaccine and also immunity from infections could be making as much difference:

When you resort to personal attacks you have already lost your argument.

I see this argument a lot but it's not the correct comparison to make - you have confounding due to the fact you're comparing completely different time periods with a whole host of different variables. The one making the biggest difference here will be the dominant variant of coronavirus at the time.

When you look at rates of infection of vaccinated and unvaccinated people in a comparable situation (i.e., in the UK in the same time period), you see rates are far lower in vaccinated groups. Same with deaths and hospitalisations.

I really don’t get your point

Olly explains time and time again re vaccines and their effectiveness. Whilst not being perfect, but still doing the majority of the heavy lifting re covid

I honestly really don’t believe vaccine passports should take place without a credible alternative for those who cannot or chose not to be vaccinated. I have mixed views re teenagers being vaccinated for example

But covid minimising and implying that vaccines aren’t effective just really gets my goat

@Olivia333

It makes zero sense because vaccinated people can still get Covid. My 80 year old double jabbed nan went to Cornwall with 3 double jabbed friends. They all have Covid they have since passed it to their double jabbed husbands and it’s now been passed to my double jabbed auntie and uncle. This isn’t rare “breakthrough” cases this is everyone they come into contact with catching Covid. Therefore what’s the point???

I think the point is that double vaxxed are less likely to become quite ill with it and less likely to end up in hospital.

@sleepwouldbenice - how are the vaccines effective?

This is not a goady, rude question. I just want you to explain in your own words how the vaccines are effective. Please.

I'm interested to see whether our understanding of the effectiveness differ?

I think the point is that double vaxxed are less likely to become quite ill with it and less likely to end up in hospital.

Ok @itsgrand

If this is the point, as you say, then how will vaccine passports help us?

[quote Penfield]**@sleepwouldbenice - how are the vaccines effective?

This is not a goady, rude question. I just want you to explain in your own words how the vaccines are effective. Please.

I'm interested to see whether our understanding of the effectiveness differ?[/quote]
Not @sleepwouldbenice

But because they reduce the likelihood of infection, onward transmission, serious illness, long term complications and death. These are findings that have been replicated in many different populations, with various dominant strains of coronavirus.

Emerging evidence that vaccination may reduce your chances of developing long COVID after infection too (however not as robust evidence as for the above).

@Penfield

I think the point is that double vaxxed are less likely to become quite ill with it and less likely to end up in hospital.

Ok @itsgrand

If this is the point, as you say, then how will vaccine passports help us?

I actually don't think they will help at all. Ironically I don't really agree with them and think they are completely pointless. However I had posted those links so that anyone could make their own mind up whether to apply or not. Even the exemption makes a total mockery of the whole covid pass anyway. What is the point of having to prove you are vaccinated if someone sitting beside you hasnt had the vaccine or been tested. It's lulling people into a false sense of security and there has certainly on MN become a heavy reliance on vaccines etc.

I be aghast when I see people on MN saying they are going to ask visitors for proof of their vaccine. I believe that your medical info is confidential and you should not have to show anything to anyone to gain entry. We should be the way we were last year, taking responsibility and being sensible.
I have been so saddened by the threads on MN about vaccinated people not wanting to mix with unvaccinated etc. I had posted the link as I had wanted to raise awareness that people relying on only being around vaccinated people has always been unrealistic. Now even more so.