Further considerations of mandatory vaccine

[Neron]

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/proposal-for-mandatory-covid-certification-in-a-plan-b-scenario-call-for-evidence

What are peoples thoughts on this proposal?
Personally, I don't think this is good.

@pontypridd

Yes - this.

It’s not being reported in MSM. But surely you’d know about it if you actually live there ...

See my answer to @IncredulousOne. You must live in your own bubble. I am very aware of what is going on in my own country, thanks, and in Melbourne particularly as my uni student DD lives there. Those protestors were not peaceful, even though a short video clip might lead you to think so. They had disrupted the city for days on end. They were vile and threatening - sorry.

@Megistotherium

Under Plan B, the government expects that mandatory vaccine-only certification for visitors to venues and events, and vaccine-or-test certification for the workforce would be introduced for the following venues and events:

all nightclubs, and other venues open after 1am with alcohol, music and dancing

indoor, crowded settings with 500 or more attendees where those attendees are likely to be in close proximity to people from other households, such as music venues or large receptions

outdoor, crowded settings with 4,000 or more attendees where those attendees are likely to be in close proximity to people from other households, such as outdoor festivals

any settings with 10,000 or more attendees, such as large sports and music stadia

There are some settings that will be exempt from requirements to use the NHS COVID Pass, such as:

communal worship

wedding ceremonies

funerals

other commemorative events

Sounds reasonable if the cases are high.

Nothing is reasonable about this. Also serves no purpose.

It's a good idea.

Be careful what you wish for or what you allow into the uk everyone.
I currently live in France and from today, because I’d rather wait longer before getting my two 12-18 year olds vaccinated against an illness that causes them no harm (and I know that for certain because they’ve already had it), they are no longer welcome as part of society.

Without getting them an uncomfortable covid test every 72 hours (there are no recognised self tests in France) we can’t now eat out as a family in a restaurant, visit a museum or theme park or cinema. We can’t go to any fairs, exhibitions or on any longer distance trains or coaches. And worst of all, my two sporty and healthy boys can no longer go to their football or tennis clubs outside of school or go inside a gym or attend a fitness class.

Is this what you want for your children? Because believe me, that is what is coming if you allow vaccine passports there. It’s fucking disgraceful and I am beyond angry.

Are that they are not welcome as part of society , and that the tests are uncomfortable and they shouldn't be having them messages you're giving them? @Lostinacloud

Because none of this would be an issue if they would do the LF testing, and personally I'd be doing everything I could to encourage them it's not a big deal and a way to make sure they're not infectious without knowing it.

@Lostinacloud

Be careful what you wish for or what you allow into the uk everyone. I currently live in France and from today, because I’d rather wait longer before getting my two 12-18 year olds vaccinated against an illness that causes them no harm (and I know that for certain because they’ve already had it), they are no longer welcome as part of society.

Without getting them an uncomfortable covid test every 72 hours (there are no recognised self tests in France) we can’t now eat out as a family in a restaurant, visit a museum or theme park or cinema. We can’t go to any fairs, exhibitions or on any longer distance trains or coaches. And worst of all, my two sporty and healthy boys can no longer go to their football or tennis clubs outside of school or go inside a gym or attend a fitness class.

Is this what you want for your children? Because believe me, that is what is coming if you allow vaccine passports there. It’s fucking disgraceful and I am beyond angry.

With the French Covid Pass, isn't it an option to show that you've also been tested with a negative result within the last 48 hours, or that you've previously had Covid?

Alixandra

All of the examples you have given (shutting down roads, jumping on cars, urinating on the shrine) are non-violent. Unpleasant, yes. Inconvenient, yes. Violent, no.

Even in this context (and I dispute that what you describe was anything other than one or two isolated incidents with the police used as an excuse for extreme violence against a large group of non-violent protesters) responding to such actions with rubber bullets is not something that is acceptable in a free and democratic society.

Ah, just saw the bit where they don't do LF testing either So, no compromise at all.

@IncredulousOne

Exactly!

The constant othering and propaganda mean that previously reasonable people now believe rubber bullets are a proportional response to protest.

What if next time the protesters are for something you agree with?

W had massive inconvenience in my home town when disabled people stopped the entire tram network. Perhaps rubber bullets and pepper spray would have removed the inconvenience?

@IncredulousOne

Alixandra

All of the examples you have given (shutting down roads, jumping on cars, urinating on the shrine) are non-violent. Unpleasant, yes. Inconvenient, yes. Violent, no.

Even in this context (and I dispute that what you describe was anything other than one or two isolated incidents with the police used as an excuse for extreme violence against a large group of non-violent protesters) responding to such actions with rubber bullets is not something that is acceptable in a free and democratic society.

That's what the protesters would suggest.

They chose the Shrine of Remembrance to gather between protest marches - a place that is sacred to us, where we remember those that lives in service - because they believed the police would not touch them there. They taunted the police when there. They left the Shrine in a mess. Shit and urine, like I said. Garbage everywhere. They put graffiti on there. I'm not sure why you make apologies for vile people like this.

My DD was walking home from her job - she had no option as the public transport was stopped because these marchers had crammed the roads. So she had to walk past them and she was heckled and taunted too as she was wearing a mask. They were throwing things past her at the police line.

No. They were vile and violent thugs who shut the city down for days. If they hadn't been stopped at some point who knows what would have happened?

But you can dispute what you like, random internet person who doesn't live here.

[quote Worldgonecrazy]**@IncredulousOne

Exactly!

The constant othering and propaganda mean that previously reasonable people now believe rubber bullets are a proportional response to protest.

What if next time the protesters are for something you agree with?

W had massive inconvenience in my home town when disabled people stopped the entire tram network. Perhaps rubber bullets and pepper spray would have removed the inconvenience?[/quote]

Read my reply to @IncredulousOne please. Honestly, I despair. You have absolutely no idea of what the protest was about but think you know all about it.

The french vaccine passport is valid with 3 scenarios -
Fully vaccinated
A negative covid test less than 72 hours old
PCR proof of a positive covid result between 11 days and 6 months old.

Payable Self test lateral flow kits are available from pharmacies for your own peace of mind but cannot be applied to the covid passport. Only the tests performed by a pharmacy or lab count and having had tests in both countries, the french nasal only tests are way more uncomfortable and far reaching.

Of course I am downplaying the whole thing to my DC and do not tell them that they are not welcome in society at the moment but that is how it feels and I am so angry that they may not be able to attend their sports clubs anymore. I have to wait and see how rigorously they are at enforcing it. It’s supposed to end on 15th November so I thought we could wait it out but the assholes have already applied to extend it until next summer.

I think you just proved my point. Thank you.

[quote Worldgonecrazy]@IncredulousOne

Exactly!

The constant othering and propaganda mean that previously reasonable people now believe rubber bullets are a proportional response to protest.

What if next time the protesters are for something you agree with?

W had massive inconvenience in my home town when disabled people stopped the entire tram network. Perhaps rubber bullets and pepper spray would have removed the inconvenience?[/quote]
And with her replies to your and my posts, Alixandra has proved your point.

@Worldgonecrazy

I think you just proved my point. Thank you.

Ah, you were quicker on the keyboard than me!

I actually don’t care what the protest was about. Unless the protesters were firing live rounds or throwing Molotov cocktails over the police line, the response was disproportionate.

It is not about the protest, or what the protest is about, it’s about the disproportionate response that has no place in a democratic or civilised society.

@Lostinacloud

The french vaccine passport is valid with 3 scenarios - Fully vaccinated A negative covid test less than 72 hours old PCR proof of a positive covid result between 11 days and 6 months old.

Payable Self test lateral flow kits are available from pharmacies for your own peace of mind but cannot be applied to the covid passport. Only the tests performed by a pharmacy or lab count and having had tests in both countries, the french nasal only tests are way more uncomfortable and far reaching.

Of course I am downplaying the whole thing to my DC and do not tell them that they are not welcome in society at the moment but that is how it feels and I am so angry that they may not be able to attend their sports clubs anymore. I have to wait and see how rigorously they are at enforcing it. It’s supposed to end on 15th November so I thought we could wait it out but the assholes have already applied to extend it until next summer.

They're even stricter when it comes to letting people into the country:

Double vaxxed, or Covid+single vaxxed.
Negative PCR test isn't good enough.

Yes you’re right @IncredulousOne. It’s the same to even leave the country if your destination isn’t within the EU or Schengen area (which uk is not).

Whatever your view on vaccination, quite frankly that is irrelevant. Freedom on movement and the ability to live as normal in society is a fundamental right and whether you are vaccinated or not should have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Fine ask for a test because that’s the only way to really make sure whoever is coming and going hasn’t got covid but what does being vaccinated prove? That you’re perhaps less likely to catch or spread covid but that you still can if vaccinated and some studies even show you have just as much viral load as an unvaccinated person.

And my fear with the uk is that so many are vaccinated that the introduction of a vaccine passport won’t really make much difference to their lives and so ultimately it will be introduced with little resistance. The problem is that once it’s established, then what do the requirements to keep it valid become? All teens vaccinated? All children vaccinated? The whole population to receive twice yearly boosters while many of the population have either become immune through natural infection or are still recovering from the after affects of the first round of vaccines?

@Lostinacloud

And my fear with the uk is that so many are vaccinated that the introduction of a vaccine passport won’t really make much difference to their lives and so ultimately it will be introduced with little resistance. The problem is that once it’s established, then what do the requirements to keep it valid become? All teens vaccinated? All children vaccinated? The whole population to receive twice yearly boosters while many of the population have either become immune through natural infection or are still recovering from the after affects of the first round of vaccines?

They could add in anything even the requirement for private health insurance in the future.

Some people refuse to see the danger.

@Worldgonecrazy

I actually don’t care what the protest was about. Unless the protesters were firing live rounds or throwing Molotov cocktails over the police line, the response was disproportionate.

It is not about the protest, or what the protest is about, it’s about the disproportionate response that has no place in a democratic or civilised society.

I actually don't care what you believe. I gave you an example of what my DD experienced - but to you, these people are just fine. You don't live in this country and have no idea who these people are - I do. You don't need to get to the stage of "firing live rounds" to be violent, either.

Yes, but irrespective of what we, you or anyone else "believes" it doesn't change the fact that none of the examples you give are "violent".

You seem to be okay with police shooting on non-violent protesters.

Yay! You go, girl!

I feel scared reading mumsnet nowadays. Was it always like this?

The number of people that actively support the government taking away rights, banning protests etc

Why?

And for this - on another thread now - I am said to have an agenda.

Well yes we all do, of some sort surely. But why is my agenda bad because it questions the government?

As someone here said, this used to be a democracy where it was possible to discuss and have a variety of views.

@pontypridd

And for this - on another thread now - I am said to have an agenda.

Well yes we all do, of some sort surely. But why is my agenda bad because it questions the government?

As someone here said, this used to be a democracy where it was possible to discuss and have a variety of views.

Your agenda is not bad because it questions the government, it's bad because you spread misinformation without attempting to critically assess or check the things you're sharing.