Will there be another lockdown

[Doublethecars]

In November time?

I’m angry at people who are resistant to having any vaccine when we know they reduce reduce your chances of being seriously ill.

You have no right to be angry at anyone for choosing not to put something into their body that they don't want. They will have their reasons and it is none of your business.

An extra downside to this pandemic is random people getting overly invested in other people's lives and choices

I say that as a fully vaxxed person

@PopcornMuncher

I’m angry at people who are resistant to having any vaccine when we know they reduce reduce your chances of being seriously ill.

You have no right to be angry at anyone for choosing not to put something into their body that they don't want. They will have their reasons and it is none of your business.

An extra downside to this pandemic is random people getting overly invested in other people's lives and choices

I say that as a fully vaxxed person

@PopcornMuncher I have every bloody right when their decisions lead to school closures, people’s businesses going under and most crucially people not getting life saving treatment on the NHS. Do you want to live in perpetual lockdowns? That’s what life will be like if people refuse the vaccine in large enough numbers. We’ll never transition from Clovid being a pandemic to epidemic without vaccination.

Today Boris Johnson confirmed that 75% of people currently in hospital have no vaccine at all mostly through choice and they’re mostly young people. Fine, if you don’t get vaccinated you don’t get hospital treatment if you get severely ill (we all know in reality that will never happen). Why is it okay for someone who’s refused a vaccine to priority NHS treatment but not someone with breast cancer?

Other people’s choice have consequences for others.

AchillesLastStand
Very well said.

@AchillesLastStand

Watching Channel 4 news now. They are reporting that 90% of people in hospital are unvaccinated or have only received one vaccine recently. I know some people can’t have the vaccine for medical reasons, but it’s unacceptable to have another lockdown and close schools again to protect people who have simply chosen not to have the vaccine. If that’s the case this will never end.

But it isn't about them. It's about all the people getting seriously ill from the flu, having heart attacks, needing cancer treatment, being in car crashes, needing surgery before things possibly become fatal.. Screw the people who haven't had the vaccine, this is about the people who have done their duty to the rest of the population but will need treatment and get substandard treatment or even be refused it because of them.

We will have to agree to disagree then. I'm fully vaxxed. I don't think that gives me the right to be angry at others others making different choices from me. I don't believe in coercion to take the vaccine.

And yes, I will be mixing with others and not questioning them on their vaccine status.

@AchillesLastStand I think you have your figures slightly incorrect there (which as you say they came from the PM is not surprising!). It’s 75% of under 50s in hospital are unvaccinated. The proportion for the elderly is not that high because they have overwhelmingly had the vaccine. About half the total admissions are under 50 though so shows just what an enormous effect the vaccine has had on hospitalisations.
If people present at hospital acutely unwell they will be treated. The more acutely unwell people the less routine (albeit potentially life saving) treatment will happen. Also less resource to go around the acutely unwell. I’m surprised that some people still don’t get the connection. You may not be worried about covid but if you don’t take preventative action on a mass scale that means you could very well be the one missing out on other treatment

@PopcornMuncher

I’m angry at people who are resistant to having any vaccine when we know they reduce reduce your chances of being seriously ill.

You have no right to be angry at anyone for choosing not to put something into their body that they don't want. They will have their reasons and it is none of your business.

An extra downside to this pandemic is random people getting overly invested in other people's lives and choices

I say that as a fully vaxxed person

Given their actions collectively have a massive adverse impact on the health and well-being of society, possibly even leading to another lockdown, anger is entirely reasonable...

Would you say "you have no right to be angry with someone who chooses to drink and drive. It's their body and they should be able to do what they like with it."

We’ll never transition from Clovid being a pandemic to epidemic without vaccination.

I don't believe this to be true. Pandemics have come and gone throughout history pretty much without vaccines. This one won't be any different

Would you say "you have no right to be angry with someone who chooses to drink and drive. It's their body and they should be able to do what they like with it."

Are you suggesting that drinking and driving is in any way similar to not having a vaccine

Would you say "you have no right to be angry with someone who chooses to drink and drive. It's their body and they should be able to do what they like with it.

This again. Drinking driving is illegal. Not having the vaccine is not the same at all.

Not having the vaccine may not be illegal (unfuckingfortunately) but just like when you drink and drive, you put other peoples lives at risk due to your shitty, stupid choices. Not just from covid, but from lack of care when they become ill because you're taking up a bed, a bed that could more likely than not have been free had you just had the (safer than having covid itself) vaccine.

And don't spout that bloody "my body, my choice" drivel. It shouldn't be when your choice is that harmful to other people.

We’ll never transition from Clovid being a pandemic to epidemic without vaccination.

Wrong--infection with the actual virus gives as good or better levels of immunity compared to the vaccine.

(It's also riskier to the individual, so I'm not recommending people do this. But yes, even if there was no vaccine, of course the pandemic would come to an end, just like the so-called "Russian flu" of 1889 did. The coronavirus which probably caused the 1889 pandemic is still with us today--it causes colds)

@JesusIsAnyNameFree

Not having the vaccine may not be illegal (unfuckingfortunately) but just like when you drink and drive, you put other peoples lives at risk due to your shitty, stupid choices. Not just from covid, but from lack of care when they become ill because you're taking up a bed, a bed that could more likely than not have been free had you just had the (safer than having covid itself) vaccine.

And don't spout that bloody "my body, my choice" drivel. It shouldn't be when your choice is that harmful to other people.

This view is ethically unacceptable to me, as I believe in liberal democratic principles.

In a free society, it is always 'my body, my choice'.

I admire health professionals so much, they care for people who make poor choices all the time, and they do it with compassion.

I had my vaccine, will encourage my children to have the vaccine. But I would not want to live in the type of oppressive society that makes any medical treatment compulsory.

@PopcornMuncher

Would you say "you have no right to be angry with someone who chooses to drink and drive. It's their body and they should be able to do what they like with it."

Are you suggesting that drinking and driving is in any way similar to not having a vaccine

Of course there are differences, and I'm not saying that vaccines should be mandatory, but there is a key similarity.....namely that both are behaviours that have a serious adverse impact on others, and therefore it is entirely reasonable to be angry with people in regards to both.

The level of risk is very different between drinking and driving and not vaccinating, IMO.

Given the vaccine only limits transmission, not even cutting it in half, the difference in risk to me between meeting someone vaccinated and unvaccinated is very minor.

It is superficially comforting to blame the unvaccinated, but they are not to blame for most of my risk. It is social behaviour generally that is driving transmission.

Well good luck to them to try to get people to stick to it. I certainly won't be.

I've stuck to every lockdown and pretty much locked myself away. Only now I've got better and it really affected my MH. I only see my mum, dad and siblings and their kids anyway.

But I'm not doing it again.

Not having the vaccine may not be illegal (unfuckingfortunately) but just like when you drink and drive, you put other peoples lives at risk due to your shitty, stupid choices

Presumably you think this is okay then?

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-care-home-resident-held-23937350

@lannistunut

The level of risk is very different between drinking and driving and not vaccinating, IMO.

Given the vaccine only limits transmission, not even cutting it in half, the difference in risk to me between meeting someone vaccinated and unvaccinated is very minor.

It is superficially comforting to blame the unvaccinated, but they are not to blame for most of my risk. It is social behaviour generally that is driving transmission.

I agree they are very different. However:

1. the key risk from unvaccinated people isn't a direct one, and I'm not concerned about vaccine status of the people I encounter. It's the entirely unnecessary pressure put on the health service as a result of Covid complications in unvaccinated people, which will both lead to those with other serious conditions not getting the care they require, with the resultant inevitable increase in preventable death, and potentially the reintroduction of restrictions (even lockdown) on society as a consequence. To me, that is absolutely something that justifies anger.

2. @PopcornMuncher stated that it was unreasonable in principle for anyone to be angry with regard to someone else's choices and behaviour with regard to what people do to their bodies and how they act afterwards (ie not taking the vaccine and then interacting with others, and therefore running the risk of becoming infected and far more ill than they otherwise would have been), irrespective of whether this caused harm to others.

I referenced 'drink driving' as I just didn't believe her, and was confident there were plenty of choices that others make that would anger her, and that if she wanted to argue that people shouldn't be angry with those who didn't take the vaccine, she needed a far better argument than one that was clearly built in sand.

@Kokeshi123

We’ll never transition from Clovid being a pandemic to epidemic without vaccination.

Wrong--infection with the actual virus gives as good or better levels of immunity compared to the vaccine.

(It's also riskier to the individual, so I'm not recommending people do this. But yes, even if there was no vaccine, of course the pandemic would come to an end, just like the so-called "Russian flu" of 1889 did. The coronavirus which probably caused the 1889 pandemic is still with us today--it causes colds)

Agreed.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if like the 1889 'flu', we'll get to the state where it's endemic and people catch it many times over a lifetime building up strong immunity when they catch it later life, when had they caught it for the very first time in adulthood it would have been very different.

The only people completely unexposed will be babies and young children for whom it won't be especially dangerous.

C L O V I D

Coming 2022.

@Thewiseoneincognito

C L O V I D

Coming 2022.

"The government has reportedly said it will only act if deaths rise to an equivalent of 50,000 per year. That sounds a lot, but as has been pointed out by Professor Oliver Johnson from the University of Bristol, it amounts to 137 deaths per day."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-britain-should-learn-from-israel-about-booster-shots/amp?twitterrimpression=true

@PrincessNutNuts Quite weird to see the Spectator discussing seriously how too many Covid patients fuck up health care

@PrincessNutNuts

"The government has reportedly said it will only act if deaths rise to an equivalent of 50,000 per year. That sounds a lot, but as has been pointed out by Professor Oliver Johnson from the University of Bristol, it amounts to 137 deaths per day."

[[https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-britain-should-learn-from-israel-about-booster-shots/amp?]]twitterrimpression=true

The seven day average is quite a bit higher than that.

More porkies from Johnson.

or perhaps @NannyAndJohn it was inews using a "source" again for what he was privately willing to accept.

He has never said anything or the sort on record at all

The seven day average as well hasnt hit 137 since March either. We are (admittedly just) under the 1000 deaths per week so not over at all.