Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Israel's worrying 4th wave

166 replies

onlychildhamster · 18/08/2021 12:04

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=amp.ft.com/content/572112fd-a713-4b0f-99be-bfcbf8506205&ved=2ahUKEwihopWKtbryAhVRY8AKHemqBsEQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3C7F7KYpPqYjilC1ak6OS4&ampcf=1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=amp.ft.com/content/572112fd-a713-4b0f-99be-bfcbf8506205&ved=2ahUKEwihopWKtbryAhVRY8AKHemqBsEQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3C7F7KYpPqYjilC1ak6OS4&ampcf=1

From the FT:

Since late last year, Israel has been a laboratory for the world. After winning early access to BioNTech/Pfizer jab supplies in exchange for sharing data on its effects, Israel was the first country to celebrate fully reopening its entire economy after double-jabbing 70 per cent of its population by early April. Now, one of the world’s most-vaccinated nations is among the first to experience an alarming fourth wave of infections — and hospitalisations — and is rushing to give booster shots. The rest of the world should take notice.

New infections in Israel have surged to the highest in six months, with signs that protection against severe disease has fallen significantly for elderly people vaccinated early this year. The data has caveats, but the trend is clear: six to eight months after second jabs, immunity starts to wane. Most recently, the health ministry found that for over-65s who received a second shot in January, protection against severe illness from the now-dominant Delta variant had fallen as low as 55 per cent, though some analysts question this

Since late last year, Israel has been a laboratory for the world. After winning early access to BioNTech/Pfizer jab supplies in exchange for sharing data on its effects, Israel was the first country to celebrate fully reopening its entire economy after double-jabbing 70 per cent of its population by early April. Now, one of the world’s most-vaccinated nations is among the first to experience an alarming fourth wave of infections — and hospitalisations — and is rushing to give booster shots. The rest of the world should take notice.

New infections in Israel have surged to the highest in six months, with signs that protection against severe disease has fallen significantly for elderly people vaccinated early this year. The data has caveats, but the trend is clear: six to eight months after second jabs, immunity starts to wane. Most recently, the health ministry found that for over-65s who received a second shot in January, protection against severe illness from the now-dominant Delta variant had fallen as low as 55 per cent, though some analysts question this figure.

The government also estimated recently that the vaccine’s effectiveness in stopping new infections among everyone who received second jabs in January had dropped sharply. It remained 82 per cent effective, however, in preventing severe illness, and 86 per cent effective in stopping hospitalisations.

While the unjabbed remain five to six times as likely to end up seriously ill, 90 per cent of Israel’s new infections are among relatively highly-vaccinated over-50s. Health officials have warned that, at current rates, at least 5,000 people would need hospital beds by early September, half with severe medical needs — twice as many as Israel is equipped to handle. Israel has started offering over-60s, and soon over-50s, a third shot. If this proves ineffective, the government has warned that a new lockdown may be unavoidable.

Israel’s case may reflect a particular combination of factors, and may not be exactly replicated elsewhere. It used almost exclusively Pfizer’s mRNA vaccine, with three-week intervals between jabs. Immunity from the Oxford/AstraZeneca or Moderna jabs may prove longer-lasting. Several countries, like the UK, extended the gap between doses to 12 weeks — so second jabs were received later. Not all followed a strict policy of inoculating the eldest first.

But Israel’s experience still has implications. Until more is known about the durability of protection from different jabs, it suggests even highly-vaccinated countries should retain some preventive measures, such as mask-wearing in public places.

OP posts:
DogFacedWoman · 21/08/2021 01:27

@Wakeupin2022

Appalling spelling grammar on the above....
Ah, the old "I can't attack the content so I'll have a go at the grammar" post. Why even post? Seriously? People like you are ruining this place.
bizboz · 21/08/2021 02:05

We did arguably a 'better' job of the rollout than Israel as some of our science based decisions were proved to work better in the long term. We used lots of AZ and used good spacing intervals

I really don't think that it was planned that way to boost immunity. At that stage we didn't know what effect a longer interval would have. The stated purpose was to allow as many people as possible to be at least partially vaccinated. If the longer interval has turned out to be an effective strategy that appears to be more by luck than by judgment. Hopefully it will work out that way.

Do we have scientific evidence that a longer interval between jabs increases better long-term immunity or is it still speculation at the moment? I guess it will all take time to see which vaccines and dosing strategies are more effective in the long term, so in the short-term the boosters are going to be an essential tool, alongside perhaps other measures needed over the winter if necessary. As with this year only time will tell.

Wakeupin2022 · 21/08/2021 04:44

^Ah, the old "I can't attack the content so I'll have a go at the grammar" post.
Why even post? Seriously?
People like you are ruining this place^

Who had made the post directly above? And who had made mistakes on their grammar Hmm.

FFS am I not even allowed to comment on my own post which I had not proof read?

I'm sure your apology will be along soon............

nether · 21/08/2021 06:58

They need to get a move on then. My CEV friend is 7 months post her 2nd vaccine and I’m 5 nearly 6 months post my 2nd vaccine

They are still hoping to start the roll out in September - though clearly won't be early September as first trailed.

Also, some reports (eg Reuters yesterday) that it'll be for most vulnerable only.
So I think it's likely that booster group 1 (old groups 1-4, CEV over 70 and health/care staff) but less clear if they'll do all of group 2 (old groups 5-9 and household CEV)

User135644 · 21/08/2021 07:11

Back in lockdown by half term then.

Noshowofmojo · 21/08/2021 07:24

@DogFacedWoman...re the grammar comment, @Wakeupin2022 was referring to their own previous post having “appalling spelling grammar” 🙄😂

GoldFrankensteinAndGrrr · 21/08/2021 10:07

@DogFacedWoman

😬

DogFacedWoman · 21/08/2021 12:28

@Wakeupin2022

^Ah, the old "I can't attack the content so I'll have a go at the grammar" post. Why even post? Seriously? People like you are ruining this place^

Who had made the post directly above? And who had made mistakes on their grammar Hmm.

FFS am I not even allowed to comment on my own post which I had not proof read?

I'm sure your apology will be along soon............

Sorry about that. I'll keep drunk posting to an absolute minimum from now on Blush
pommedeterre · 21/08/2021 18:06

@roses2

Hmm. We did arguably a 'better' job of the rollout than Israel as some of our science based decisions were proved to work better in the long term. We used lots of AZ and used good spacing intervals

You have more faith in the government than I do if you think it was a planned strategy! I had understood they increased the spacing to allow for more people to have their first vaccine rather than they thought it would provide longer immunity. Of course a longer spacing provides longer immunity albeit at a lower rate.

I'd be interested in seeing the next 6 months of data to see how long vaccine immunity actually lasts and the rate of covid reoccurrence in people.

I think our scientists took the punt not the government in the end. It worked for us to get our jabs to a good level quickly. Our scientists are actually world leading. Our government less so.

I also do think that no government has done very well though, it's the impossible challenge to be fair as you can never please everyone.

I do think that we should all assume we'll need boosters at some point and then again at some intervals.

Egghead68 · 21/08/2021 22:39

This was in The Times today

Israel's worrying 4th wave
CovidCorvid · 21/08/2021 22:53

I can see this being another fuck up from chief ditherer Boris.

SaskiaRembrandt · 22/08/2021 07:02

@bumbleymummy

This is the latest data from the PHE website on the number of deaths per age group on 6 August.

Under 1 year: 1
1 to 14: 1
15 to 44: 39
45 to 64: 105
65 to 74: 100
75 to 84: 129
85+ : 127

I'm not sure that ties in with the idea that the most seriously ill are unvaccinated. Surely the most seriously ill are the ones who ultimately die and they are mainly over age 75. The uptake of the vaccine in the over 70s is really high.

Do you have a link to the source of that data?
newnortherner111 · 22/08/2021 11:13

I wonder how many people travel in and out of Israel, especially from the Palestinian territories and Jordan, and how many of those have been vaccinated.

bumbleymummy · 22/08/2021 17:17

@SaskiaRembrandt
sorry, it's the ONS website, not PHE.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths

Download the data under the admissions/hospitalisations/deaths charts.

speckledostrichegg · 22/08/2021 17:25

I'm not sure that ties in with the idea that the most seriously ill are unvaccinated. Surely the most seriously ill are the ones who ultimately die and they are mainly over age 75. The uptake of the vaccine in the over 70s is really high.

Why the continual downplaying of vaccine efficacy?

There will be will less severe illness, hospitalisations and deaths in a group of vaccinated 30-40 year olds compared to a group of unvaccinated 30-40 year olds.

You will see the same trend in older age groups, but with a shift, as they are more vulnerable to coronavirus.

Attempting to compare different age groups when age is probably the single biggest risk factor is pointless.

bumbleymummy · 22/08/2021 17:53

Not downplaying anything. It’s a reply to Bobholl’s post. Read in context.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread