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Israel's worrying 4th wave

166 replies

onlychildhamster · 18/08/2021 12:04

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=amp.ft.com/content/572112fd-a713-4b0f-99be-bfcbf8506205&ved=2ahUKEwihopWKtbryAhVRY8AKHemqBsEQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3C7F7KYpPqYjilC1ak6OS4&ampcf=1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=amp.ft.com/content/572112fd-a713-4b0f-99be-bfcbf8506205&ved=2ahUKEwihopWKtbryAhVRY8AKHemqBsEQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3C7F7KYpPqYjilC1ak6OS4&ampcf=1

From the FT:

Since late last year, Israel has been a laboratory for the world. After winning early access to BioNTech/Pfizer jab supplies in exchange for sharing data on its effects, Israel was the first country to celebrate fully reopening its entire economy after double-jabbing 70 per cent of its population by early April. Now, one of the world’s most-vaccinated nations is among the first to experience an alarming fourth wave of infections — and hospitalisations — and is rushing to give booster shots. The rest of the world should take notice.

New infections in Israel have surged to the highest in six months, with signs that protection against severe disease has fallen significantly for elderly people vaccinated early this year. The data has caveats, but the trend is clear: six to eight months after second jabs, immunity starts to wane. Most recently, the health ministry found that for over-65s who received a second shot in January, protection against severe illness from the now-dominant Delta variant had fallen as low as 55 per cent, though some analysts question this

Since late last year, Israel has been a laboratory for the world. After winning early access to BioNTech/Pfizer jab supplies in exchange for sharing data on its effects, Israel was the first country to celebrate fully reopening its entire economy after double-jabbing 70 per cent of its population by early April. Now, one of the world’s most-vaccinated nations is among the first to experience an alarming fourth wave of infections — and hospitalisations — and is rushing to give booster shots. The rest of the world should take notice.

New infections in Israel have surged to the highest in six months, with signs that protection against severe disease has fallen significantly for elderly people vaccinated early this year. The data has caveats, but the trend is clear: six to eight months after second jabs, immunity starts to wane. Most recently, the health ministry found that for over-65s who received a second shot in January, protection against severe illness from the now-dominant Delta variant had fallen as low as 55 per cent, though some analysts question this figure.

The government also estimated recently that the vaccine’s effectiveness in stopping new infections among everyone who received second jabs in January had dropped sharply. It remained 82 per cent effective, however, in preventing severe illness, and 86 per cent effective in stopping hospitalisations.

While the unjabbed remain five to six times as likely to end up seriously ill, 90 per cent of Israel’s new infections are among relatively highly-vaccinated over-50s. Health officials have warned that, at current rates, at least 5,000 people would need hospital beds by early September, half with severe medical needs — twice as many as Israel is equipped to handle. Israel has started offering over-60s, and soon over-50s, a third shot. If this proves ineffective, the government has warned that a new lockdown may be unavoidable.

Israel’s case may reflect a particular combination of factors, and may not be exactly replicated elsewhere. It used almost exclusively Pfizer’s mRNA vaccine, with three-week intervals between jabs. Immunity from the Oxford/AstraZeneca or Moderna jabs may prove longer-lasting. Several countries, like the UK, extended the gap between doses to 12 weeks — so second jabs were received later. Not all followed a strict policy of inoculating the eldest first.

But Israel’s experience still has implications. Until more is known about the durability of protection from different jabs, it suggests even highly-vaccinated countries should retain some preventive measures, such as mask-wearing in public places.

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 19/08/2021 23:11

The thing is, it is doing what it is supposed to - reducing hospitalisation and deaths - but not what it was hoped to. The link between infection and hospitalisation / death is not broken - despite Government rhetoric - but the percentage of those infected who go on to become very seriously ill is greatly reduced. That means, for example, that you can have say 10x the number of infections but only get 1x the number of hospitalisations. That’s obviously great - as long as you aremanaging not to get more than 10x the number of cases! That’s where the fact that the vaccine is not as good as was hoped at reducing infections is an issue - it means that, especially if immunity does decline over time, there is still a possibility of very high cases and associated reduced-but-not-gone deaths.

It was hoped that vaccines would provide a ‘wall’ of protection. It turns out it’s more of a fence - good, but not totally solid.

cantkeepawayforever · 19/08/2021 23:23

I also think a lot of public health policy seems to have been built around the hope that vaccination eliminates or very significantly reduces the likelihood of catching Covid and then passing it on, removing the need for any other measures. The data thus far, though positive in terms of reducing deaths & hospitalisation doesn’t fully bear out this hope, and this means that the public health decisions built on it are not on very firm foundations.

bumbleymummy · 19/08/2021 23:27

It was hoped that vaccines would provide a ‘wall’ of protection. It turns out it’s more of a fence - good, but not totally solid.

Good analogy. We’ll put :)

bumbleymummy · 19/08/2021 23:27

Well*

user1477391263 · 19/08/2021 23:50

Here you go:
www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z

(That's the one about "original SARS" and the strong t cell response after 17 years)

Mango1982 · 19/08/2021 23:50

It’s almost like vaccines ….. oh wait

sunnymoo · 19/08/2021 23:53

@Mango1982

It’s almost like vaccines ….. oh wait
haha, I know right, you all just keep injecting that crappola into you
Toesies · 20/08/2021 02:22

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

Personal attacks and name calling of ‘doom mongers’ aren’t necessary

I would agree in most cases but when someone posts misery on nearly every thread, including going onto a positivity thread to have a dig, and refuses to admit when their wrong then I don't know what else to call them.

Like TheVampiresWife on the very second post?

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 20/08/2021 09:59

I'm not sure what comment you are referring to from TheVampiresWife @Toesies but I'm talking about people who only ever post misery and actively search out positive threads to try and bring them down, not someone who makes the odd negative post which we've probably all done during the pandemic.

TheVampiresWife · 20/08/2021 10:15

Huh?

@Toesies

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 20/08/2021 10:19

@TheVampiresWife

Huh?

@Toesies

I'm glad it's not just me who doesn't understand!
TheVampiresWife · 20/08/2021 10:28

@PinkSparklyPussyCat I'm so confused! Confused

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 20/08/2021 11:15

[quote TheVampiresWife]@PinkSparklyPussyCat I'm so confused! Confused[/quote]
You're one of the last posters I'd think of as being negative!

Toesies · 20/08/2021 11:32

[quote TheVampiresWife]@PinkSparklyPussyCat I'm so confused! Confused[/quote]

Ah, what I was actually thinking of was the CV/CEV support thread. You hopped on the very second post with an unhelpful post pushing, yet again, your mask-exempt agenda despite your apparent CV status. There was no need for it.

pommedeterre · 20/08/2021 11:33

Hmm. We did arguably a 'better' job of the rollout than Israel as some of our science based decisions were proved to work better in the long term. We used lots of AZ and used good spacing intervals.

We are planning a booster campaign for this autumn.

I think this is really interesting and useful and Israel is a great data source for us as they are in front of us but I just can't get too worked up about this. This end of summer (did it ever really start UK weather gods?!) feels very different to the end of summer 2019. I personally remain positive for normality for the most part to continue.

gogohm · 20/08/2021 11:40

There's a plan for boosters, my friend is head of public health for here and they are working with stakeholders to ready themselves for imminent government decisions. The rough plan is to boost 6 months after your second jab prioritising obviously those who are already 6 months+ this staggers the rollout

roses2 · 20/08/2021 11:51

Hmm. We did arguably a 'better' job of the rollout than Israel as some of our science based decisions were proved to work better in the long term. We used lots of AZ and used good spacing intervals

You have more faith in the government than I do if you think it was a planned strategy! I had understood they increased the spacing to allow for more people to have their first vaccine rather than they thought it would provide longer immunity. Of course a longer spacing provides longer immunity albeit at a lower rate.

I'd be interested in seeing the next 6 months of data to see how long vaccine immunity actually lasts and the rate of covid reoccurrence in people.

TheVampiresWife · 20/08/2021 12:02

@Toesies I'm fairly sure that I didn't mention being mask exempt in that post. Why do you call being supportive and understanding of those unable to wear masks an 'agenda', incidentally?

I pointed out that it was goady for the OP to suggest that those who were happy that restrictions were ending would be 'too busy partying to bother us', and that it wasn't quite so binary, and that having health conditions which may impact on my life expectancy along with the wake-up call of covid has illustrated to me, personally, more than ever how short life is and it's for living.

What do you mean, apparent CV status? Not everyone who's CV/CEV has the same viewpoints, you know.

TheVampiresWife · 20/08/2021 12:05

And that one (pretty innocuous) post is in no way comparable to the hundreds, if not thousands, of misleading, inflammatory, offensive, insensitive and dangerous posts by a group of three or four persistent posters. Not even slightly.

Toesies · 20/08/2021 12:31

[quote TheVampiresWife]@Toesies I'm fairly sure that I didn't mention being mask exempt in that post. Why do you call being supportive and understanding of those unable to wear masks an 'agenda', incidentally?

I pointed out that it was goady for the OP to suggest that those who were happy that restrictions were ending would be 'too busy partying to bother us', and that it wasn't quite so binary, and that having health conditions which may impact on my life expectancy along with the wake-up call of covid has illustrated to me, personally, more than ever how short life is and it's for living.

What do you mean, apparent CV status? Not everyone who's CV/CEV has the same viewpoints, you know.[/quote]

I'm not sure that anyone reading the CV board on a regular basis would be unaware that you are mask-exempt, as you pointed it out constantly. That is why I call it an agenda.

As to the "misleading, offensive, insensitive, inflammatory, and dangerous" posts - well, those labels could be easily applied to the covid minimisers on this board too. And there are many, many more of those.

TheVampiresWife · 20/08/2021 13:03

@Toesies only when the subject of masks has been brought up by someone else. Usually when whoever has brought it up has done so to suggest those not wearing masks are all selfish/that exemptions shouldn't exist/that if you're exempt you should stay at home, and so on.

Fact remains, I didn't mention masks on the post you said I was 'pushing my mask exempt agenda' on.

I daresay others post misleading, offensive, etc stuff too. But that's not what we were talking about. And there isn't a hardcore of them who post incessantly, either.

Toesies · 20/08/2021 13:25

[quote TheVampiresWife]@Toesies only when the subject of masks has been brought up by someone else. Usually when whoever has brought it up has done so to suggest those not wearing masks are all selfish/that exemptions shouldn't exist/that if you're exempt you should stay at home, and so on.

Fact remains, I didn't mention masks on the post you said I was 'pushing my mask exempt agenda' on.

I daresay others post misleading, offensive, etc stuff too. But that's not what we were talking about. And there isn't a hardcore of them who post incessantly, either.[/quote]
I'd say there is a hardcore group of them that do post frequently. But we can agree to disagree on that.

TheVampiresWife · 20/08/2021 13:44

Fair enough, @Toesies.

Now perhaps you could stop derailing OP's thread by posting about something I didn't say on another thread a week ago?

CovidCorvid · 20/08/2021 17:56

@gogohm

There's a plan for boosters, my friend is head of public health for here and they are working with stakeholders to ready themselves for imminent government decisions. The rough plan is to boost 6 months after your second jab prioritising obviously those who are already 6 months+ this staggers the rollout
They need to get a move on then. My CEV friend is 7 months post her 2nd vaccine and I’m 5 nearly 6 months post my 2nd vaccine.
herecomesthsun · 20/08/2021 18:15

@TheVampiresWife

Fair enough, *@Toesies*.

Now perhaps you could stop derailing OP's thread by posting about something I didn't say on another thread a week ago?

disingenuous much Grin