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Israel's worrying 4th wave

166 replies

onlychildhamster · 18/08/2021 12:04

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From the FT:

Since late last year, Israel has been a laboratory for the world. After winning early access to BioNTech/Pfizer jab supplies in exchange for sharing data on its effects, Israel was the first country to celebrate fully reopening its entire economy after double-jabbing 70 per cent of its population by early April. Now, one of the world’s most-vaccinated nations is among the first to experience an alarming fourth wave of infections — and hospitalisations — and is rushing to give booster shots. The rest of the world should take notice.

New infections in Israel have surged to the highest in six months, with signs that protection against severe disease has fallen significantly for elderly people vaccinated early this year. The data has caveats, but the trend is clear: six to eight months after second jabs, immunity starts to wane. Most recently, the health ministry found that for over-65s who received a second shot in January, protection against severe illness from the now-dominant Delta variant had fallen as low as 55 per cent, though some analysts question this

Since late last year, Israel has been a laboratory for the world. After winning early access to BioNTech/Pfizer jab supplies in exchange for sharing data on its effects, Israel was the first country to celebrate fully reopening its entire economy after double-jabbing 70 per cent of its population by early April. Now, one of the world’s most-vaccinated nations is among the first to experience an alarming fourth wave of infections — and hospitalisations — and is rushing to give booster shots. The rest of the world should take notice.

New infections in Israel have surged to the highest in six months, with signs that protection against severe disease has fallen significantly for elderly people vaccinated early this year. The data has caveats, but the trend is clear: six to eight months after second jabs, immunity starts to wane. Most recently, the health ministry found that for over-65s who received a second shot in January, protection against severe illness from the now-dominant Delta variant had fallen as low as 55 per cent, though some analysts question this figure.

The government also estimated recently that the vaccine’s effectiveness in stopping new infections among everyone who received second jabs in January had dropped sharply. It remained 82 per cent effective, however, in preventing severe illness, and 86 per cent effective in stopping hospitalisations.

While the unjabbed remain five to six times as likely to end up seriously ill, 90 per cent of Israel’s new infections are among relatively highly-vaccinated over-50s. Health officials have warned that, at current rates, at least 5,000 people would need hospital beds by early September, half with severe medical needs — twice as many as Israel is equipped to handle. Israel has started offering over-60s, and soon over-50s, a third shot. If this proves ineffective, the government has warned that a new lockdown may be unavoidable.

Israel’s case may reflect a particular combination of factors, and may not be exactly replicated elsewhere. It used almost exclusively Pfizer’s mRNA vaccine, with three-week intervals between jabs. Immunity from the Oxford/AstraZeneca or Moderna jabs may prove longer-lasting. Several countries, like the UK, extended the gap between doses to 12 weeks — so second jabs were received later. Not all followed a strict policy of inoculating the eldest first.

But Israel’s experience still has implications. Until more is known about the durability of protection from different jabs, it suggests even highly-vaccinated countries should retain some preventive measures, such as mask-wearing in public places.

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 18/08/2021 12:58

So boosters definitely in the ‘detailed planning turning into implementation’ phase. We were not particularly early vaccination groups, either.

Getyourarseofffthequattro · 18/08/2021 13:00

[quote onlychildhamster]@Getyourarseofffthequattro exactly we aren't Israel. Israel actually has an excellent public healthcare system, but even they are in danger of being overwhelmed.[/quote]
yeah, you definitely cant wait for it to get bad can you. Ugh.

onlychildhamster · 18/08/2021 13:04

@Getyourarseofffthequattro I would rather be realistic :) as a Londoner, I was stung by not being able to gather with family over Christmas (even though I don't celebrate Christmas but I did plan stuff). I definitely wouldn't plan any trip abroad or holidays in autumn/winter 2021 or get a gym membership or buy any musical tickets (well in advance) in light of this information

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 18/08/2021 13:04

Query on Israel - what is the vaccination status of Palestinians in the West Bank etc? How much mingling is there across borders? Does the high ‘Israeli citizen’ vaccination rate miss out a large neighbouring unvaccinated population that has functioned / will function as a reservoir of infection?

I am pondering this in the context of our own pools of unvaccinated people mixing in close contact and then mingling with the wider population - schools - rather than thinking of a political point.

CoffeeWithCheese · 18/08/2021 13:06

So you'd rather no one spoke about it and we go into Winter with sky high cases, waning immunity, and no plans for boosters?

Oh we know you will always be along to tell us in no uncertain terms that we're doomed and doomed for definite. With your crystal ball can you also give me next week's winning lottery numbers though please?

Getyourarseofffthequattro · 18/08/2021 13:08

[quote onlychildhamster]@Getyourarseofffthequattro I would rather be realistic :) as a Londoner, I was stung by not being able to gather with family over Christmas (even though I don't celebrate Christmas but I did plan stuff). I definitely wouldn't plan any trip abroad or holidays in autumn/winter 2021 or get a gym membership or buy any musical tickets (well in advance) in light of this information[/quote]
I don't think you are being realistic though, i think you're really hoping for the worst case scenario so you can say "i told you so" - At present, there is no reason to believe everything will close down again, because at present there is no reason why it would need to. if you dont want to book anything, then go for it, but having lost people unexpectedly i think thats foolish and i will personally be living my life as much as i can.

Pootle40 · 18/08/2021 13:09

@Twizbe

Doom and gloom, back in your bunkers everyone.
Wink
Aposterhasnoname · 18/08/2021 13:10

@NannyAndJohn

Yep, anyone with half a brain knew this was coming.

And we'll be going in to it with over 30000 cases a day.

Meanwhile those of us with a full brain can see that this is the first time Israel has had a wave of the Delta variant, that the unvaccinated are 5-6 times more likely to catch it, and even with waning immunity it’s still 82% effective against serious illness. And that’s before you start on the potential extra effectiveness afforded by longer waits between jabs.
onlychildhamster · 18/08/2021 13:12

'Yet boosters are unlikely to tame a Delta surge on their own, says Dvir Aran, a biomedical data scientist at Technion. In Israel, the current surge is so steep that “even if you get two-thirds of those 60-plus [boosted], it’s just gonna give us another week, maybe 2 weeks until our hospitals are flooded.” He says it’s also critical to vaccinate those who still haven’t received their first or second doses, and to return to the masking and social distancing Israel thought it had left behind—but has begun to reinstate.

Aran’s message for the United States and other wealthier nations considering boosters is stark: “Do not think that the boosters are the solution.”

Honestly I don't know what the solution is. Just putting out the views of scientists and doctors in a highly vaxed country which is a real life cast study.

OP posts:
2021V2 · 18/08/2021 13:13

@HairyFloppins

I thought there was a booster plan in place?. My GP put this on FB the other week.

In September we will be offering our patients a Covid booster vaccine alongside the flu vaccine
The JCVI's advice is to offer a third Covid jab (and a flu jab) to the following people from September 2021:
adults aged 16 and over who are immunosuppressed or clinically extremely vulnerable
residents in care homes for older adults
all adults aged 70 and over
frontline health and social care workers
After those groups, it will be:
all adults aged 50 and over
adults aged 16-49 who are in a flu or Covid-19 at-risk group
those living in the same house as people who are immunosuppressed

I’m under 50 and I’ve been told in October / November I will get the flu jab at work and Covid booster together
Staffy1 · 18/08/2021 13:14

Are England going to give booster shots? It was mentioned they would start in September for all over 50s, but the story seems to change daily. Last I read it was only going to be given to health care workers and care home workers.

Wakeupin2022 · 18/08/2021 13:17

We are different from Israel!

2nd jags were given out in the UK at a longer (in hindsight more sensible) interval. We also have a lot of the very excellent AZ doses that have been given. Let's hope they provide longer immunity.

My parents got Pfizer. They are over 70 and I think their 2nd dose was late April / early May. 3 months after many in Israel.

We have got time to get the boosters done. I don't think we need to go to panic stations yet.

myrtleWilson · 18/08/2021 13:19

Boosters start in early September

Paulinna · 18/08/2021 13:27

Thing is we need to fund and support vaccination for countries like Africa and India
I don’t see how this can work when regular boosters are required? We won’t even get one jab into every African before the first people need to be jabbed again. It’s a constant cycle of jabs once or twice a year forever. We’ll struggle to sustain that in Western countries never mind the entire world.

x2boys · 18/08/2021 13:50

America have plans to offer Boosters after eight months apparently, but again how long will the protection from Boosters last?

lifehappened · 18/08/2021 13:58

Boosters have always been part of the plan. Stand down everyone!

IndigoC · 18/08/2021 13:59

No boosters planned for those in their 40s, despite men in their 40s making up the largest group in ICUs right now. Delta affects younger age groups more severely, it’s time the government woke up to this fact and planned accordingly.

2boysand1princess · 18/08/2021 13:59

@Twizbe

Doom and gloom, back in your bunkers everyone.
Ignorance really is bliss….
lifehappened · 18/08/2021 14:01

@Aposterhasnoname 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Cornettoninja · 18/08/2021 14:20

We aren't Israel

No, and we weren’t China or Italy either and we aren’t Singapore or New Zealand. None of that negates the fact that to find out what does and doesn’t work we absolutely should pay attention to what happens in other countries. If the vaccine is producing data that it wains in efficacy then that’s worth paying attention to.

The fact that it confirms current plans to offer boosters isn’t a bad thing and worth knowing for people who won’t be offered boosters.

@NannyAndJohn wasn’t wrong to point out we’ll likely be going into winter with approx 30k cases per day, it’s looking likely to be that’s where we’re levelling off at currently and winter was always expected to bring a further rise in cases alongside flu. It’s still up in the air which way things will go for us and I don’t recall anything official saying anything to the contrary.

Aposterhasnoname · 18/08/2021 14:20

@IndigoC

No boosters planned for those in their 40s, despite men in their 40s making up the largest group in ICUs right now. Delta affects younger age groups more severely, it’s time the government woke up to this fact and planned accordingly.
Bullshit. The reason there’s more younger people in hospital now is because older people have had both jabs, many younger ones haven’t.
ifonly4 · 18/08/2021 14:27

Are there any other countries that were ahead of us on vaccination? If so, it'll be interesting to watch what happens with them in the next month.

I haven't got a link, but I read recently that Moderna was faring a little better than Pfizer in terms of it's effectiveness after six months. The text stated they didn't have any data yet on AZ.

TheKeatingFive · 18/08/2021 14:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

frozendaisy · 18/08/2021 14:38

Maybe the AZ vaccine works longer, time will tell shortly in the UK, AZ being more widely given here.

Too many variables to make a like-for-like comparison.

Just want this to be over now it's exhausting.

TheDogsMother · 18/08/2021 14:40

I thought I read somewhere that any Covid booster would need to be at least 7 days apart from the flu jab. Lloyds Chemists are taking online bookings for flu jabs now to start mid September, both free and paid I believe.