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Israel's worrying 4th wave

166 replies

onlychildhamster · 18/08/2021 12:04

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From the FT:

Since late last year, Israel has been a laboratory for the world. After winning early access to BioNTech/Pfizer jab supplies in exchange for sharing data on its effects, Israel was the first country to celebrate fully reopening its entire economy after double-jabbing 70 per cent of its population by early April. Now, one of the world’s most-vaccinated nations is among the first to experience an alarming fourth wave of infections — and hospitalisations — and is rushing to give booster shots. The rest of the world should take notice.

New infections in Israel have surged to the highest in six months, with signs that protection against severe disease has fallen significantly for elderly people vaccinated early this year. The data has caveats, but the trend is clear: six to eight months after second jabs, immunity starts to wane. Most recently, the health ministry found that for over-65s who received a second shot in January, protection against severe illness from the now-dominant Delta variant had fallen as low as 55 per cent, though some analysts question this

Since late last year, Israel has been a laboratory for the world. After winning early access to BioNTech/Pfizer jab supplies in exchange for sharing data on its effects, Israel was the first country to celebrate fully reopening its entire economy after double-jabbing 70 per cent of its population by early April. Now, one of the world’s most-vaccinated nations is among the first to experience an alarming fourth wave of infections — and hospitalisations — and is rushing to give booster shots. The rest of the world should take notice.

New infections in Israel have surged to the highest in six months, with signs that protection against severe disease has fallen significantly for elderly people vaccinated early this year. The data has caveats, but the trend is clear: six to eight months after second jabs, immunity starts to wane. Most recently, the health ministry found that for over-65s who received a second shot in January, protection against severe illness from the now-dominant Delta variant had fallen as low as 55 per cent, though some analysts question this figure.

The government also estimated recently that the vaccine’s effectiveness in stopping new infections among everyone who received second jabs in January had dropped sharply. It remained 82 per cent effective, however, in preventing severe illness, and 86 per cent effective in stopping hospitalisations.

While the unjabbed remain five to six times as likely to end up seriously ill, 90 per cent of Israel’s new infections are among relatively highly-vaccinated over-50s. Health officials have warned that, at current rates, at least 5,000 people would need hospital beds by early September, half with severe medical needs — twice as many as Israel is equipped to handle. Israel has started offering over-60s, and soon over-50s, a third shot. If this proves ineffective, the government has warned that a new lockdown may be unavoidable.

Israel’s case may reflect a particular combination of factors, and may not be exactly replicated elsewhere. It used almost exclusively Pfizer’s mRNA vaccine, with three-week intervals between jabs. Immunity from the Oxford/AstraZeneca or Moderna jabs may prove longer-lasting. Several countries, like the UK, extended the gap between doses to 12 weeks — so second jabs were received later. Not all followed a strict policy of inoculating the eldest first.

But Israel’s experience still has implications. Until more is known about the durability of protection from different jabs, it suggests even highly-vaccinated countries should retain some preventive measures, such as mask-wearing in public places.

OP posts:
MissyB1 · 18/08/2021 15:07

@cantkeepawayforever

Query on Israel - what is the vaccination status of Palestinians in the West Bank etc? How much mingling is there across borders? Does the high ‘Israeli citizen’ vaccination rate miss out a large neighbouring unvaccinated population that has functioned / will function as a reservoir of infection?

I am pondering this in the context of our own pools of unvaccinated people mixing in close contact and then mingling with the wider population - schools - rather than thinking of a political point.

Good point! I’m off to google the vaccination rate amongst Palestinians.
MissyB1 · 18/08/2021 15:11

@cantkeepawayforeverOk a quick read of BBC link to vaccination of Palestinians

MissyB1 · 18/08/2021 15:13

Sorry that went wrong!

@cantkeepawayforever

BBC says Palestinians in East Jerusalem were vaccinated along with Israelis, as they are covered by Israeli healthcare.

In the West Bank and Gaza a very different story, they are only just beginning to get vaccinated- using Covax.

HangingChads · 18/08/2021 15:23

I still reckon everything is going to be ok. Booster jabs will happen. Infections may rise but deaths and hospitalisations will remain low so we won't be locking down again. It's not a problem if thousands of people catch a mild flu-like illness (which is what it most commonly is in the vaccinated population).

Cornettoninja · 18/08/2021 16:08

@TheDogsMother

I thought I read somewhere that any Covid booster would need to be at least 7 days apart from the flu jab. Lloyds Chemists are taking online bookings for flu jabs now to start mid September, both free and paid I believe.
Just to add to this information boots have been taking bookings for a while. I’ve booked ours in although they’re at the higher end price wise if you’re not entitled to a free jab.
Cornettoninja · 18/08/2021 16:11

It's not a problem if thousands of people catch a mild flu-like illness (which is what it most commonly is in the vaccinated population)

This is true but we have a large proportion of the population who have received pfizer and won’t be included for a booster. This means that infections that would be mild if caught now could be more severe (and therefore increase pressure on the NHS) due to waining efficacy as we progress through winter.

GoldFrankensteinAndGrrr · 18/08/2021 16:53

@NannyAndJohn what do you mean, no plans for boosters? I (like others on this thread) have been told my my GP I'll be getting one with my flu jab, and they're being rolled out from the end of September.

Also, isn't it the case that Israel is only now feeling the effects of Delta, so of course cases will rise? And their vaccination rollout began earlier, so immunity will of course be waning now (as we all understood it would)?

CrunchyCarrot · 18/08/2021 17:03

I think although it's useful to look at how other countries are progressing, we can't directly compare. The UK had 8-11 weeks between jabs compared to Israel who stuck to the 3 week gap. Although the UK looked to be taking a big risk with the longer gap between jabs, I think it has serendipitously turned out for the best and will give greater, longer lasting protection.

justasking111 · 18/08/2021 17:06

[quote onlychildhamster]@justasking111 thats great for Wales, for England, they seem to be planning it. But can they get all those jabs in the arms of over 50s by winter? I don't know.[/quote]
Took ds for his second jab today took an hour with the people running things there. When the armed forces were running our center back in the spring you were in and out inside 20 minutes including 15 minutes resting time. It was frankly awesome

Unsure33 · 18/08/2021 17:08

@YetAnotherSpartacus

We are . That is what COVAX does .

Dissimilitude · 18/08/2021 17:10

I don't think we'll be in the same position, for several reasons.

  • More AZ. There are hints that AZ is offering better long-term immunity. I wonder if the mRNA jabs provoke a large (but short term) antibody-mediated immunity, but AZ produces a stronger T-cell response.
  • We spaced the doses.
  • We've had much more infection, particularly in the youngest cohorts, meaning there are less susceptibles.

The game now is to minimise harm on the way to it becoming endemic. There is no point in further lockdowns - the optimal result is to vaccinate as many as possible, boost the elderly every once in a while, and don't worry too much about the young.

itsgettingwierd · 18/08/2021 17:11

@HairyFloppins

I thought there was a booster plan in place?. My GP put this on FB the other week.

In September we will be offering our patients a Covid booster vaccine alongside the flu vaccine
The JCVI's advice is to offer a third Covid jab (and a flu jab) to the following people from September 2021:
adults aged 16 and over who are immunosuppressed or clinically extremely vulnerable
residents in care homes for older adults
all adults aged 70 and over
frontline health and social care workers
After those groups, it will be:
all adults aged 50 and over
adults aged 16-49 who are in a flu or Covid-19 at-risk group
those living in the same house as people who are immunosuppressed

That's how I understood it.

Ds is 17 and in the at risk flu group. He always has his jab around Oct time and I get mine as his carer at the same time.

My understanding is this year you will get the booster at the same time.

itsgettingwierd · 18/08/2021 17:14

[quote onlychildhamster]@Getyourarseofffthequattro exactly we aren't Israel. Israel actually has an excellent public healthcare system, but even they are in danger of being overwhelmed.[/quote]
Israel were months ahead for vaccinations.

They are planning boosters now. We are planning now to start in a few months.

Probably isn't too much difference except it seems we've planned ahead

bumbleymummy · 18/08/2021 17:15

@onlychildhamster

We need booster shots asap!
Is this really what you got from this? Confused We haven’t even finished fully vaccinating some of the most vulnerable groups yet.

Yes, we may need booster shots for the most vulnerable this autumn. We knew that already and have the doses for it. We did leave a longer gap between doses though which, studies showed, improved immunity so we may not be in the same situation at all.

bumbleymummy · 18/08/2021 17:17

Meanwhile those of us with a full brain can see that this is the first time Israel has had a wave of the Delta variant, that the unvaccinated are 5-6 times more likely to catch it, and even with waning immunity it’s still 82% effective against serious illness. And that’s before you start on the potential extra effectiveness afforded by longer waits between jabs.

This^

Almostwelsh · 18/08/2021 17:28

We don't necessarily need boosters in autumn for those in their 50s. Most of this group only got their second jab in June or July so they won't be 8 months out until nearly spring.

We have time.

justasking111 · 18/08/2021 18:06

Sitting outside the centre was interested to see many older people in the queue today. I did wonder if they had changed their mind and decided to have it

Walkaround · 18/08/2021 18:18

When it comes to immunity, presumably those Israelis who have caught covid despite vaccination have effectively had their “booster shots” already by catching the Delta variant.

cantkeepawayforever · 18/08/2021 18:25

@TheKeatingFive

Oh well at least it’s giving nanny something to get worked up about again.

I’m sure we were all getting very concerned for her. Wink

It is getting very tedious to see an ad hominem attack instead of a reasoned argument about the subject of the thread EVERY time anything that could mean this isn’t all over is posted.

If your view is that the facts around the 4th wave in Israel do not merit any concern in the UK, then explain why. Personal attacks and name calling of ‘doom mongers’ aren’t necessary. Throughout the pandemic, there have been moments where there are different opinions about the likely outcomes - some favouring a more optimistic, some a more pessimistic view. In hindsight, sometimes the more optimistic, sometimes the more pessimistic more closely matched how things panned out. It really isn’t the case that one view has been right all along and can jeer at the other.

TheKeatingFive · 18/08/2021 18:27

It is getting very tedious to see an ad hominem attack instead of a reasoned argument about the subject of the thread EVERY time anything that could mean this isn’t all over is posted.

Report if you think I’ve broken guidelines. Outside of that people can post what they like.

Sparklingbrook · 18/08/2021 18:29

Can someone summarise what we need to get worked up about now please? I'm not seeing it.

onlychildhamster · 18/08/2021 18:57

@Sparklingbrook we might experience a spike in hospital admissions in autumn/winter similar to what Israel is experiencing now, maybe leading to lockdown/further restrictions.

I have family in Israel and they tell me it doesn't look good :(

OP posts:
ilovebagpuss · 18/08/2021 19:16

I work in adult health care and was asking the CEO about boosters today just in conversation. He said he had been in contact with local health authority and although they had discussed giving a booster with the flu vaccine there was now talk of giving more vaccines to the needy overseas who haven’t had a first jab.
This would mean stretching our booster time further down the line. It’s just discussion but it was interesting to see what’s being thrown about.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 18/08/2021 19:24

Personal attacks and name calling of ‘doom mongers’ aren’t necessary

I would agree in most cases but when someone posts misery on nearly every thread, including going onto a positivity thread to have a dig, and refuses to admit when their wrong then I don't know what else to call them.

neveradullmoment99 · 18/08/2021 19:30

I heard hat the reason for the high infection rate in vaccinated people was because of the time between. They gave the shot too close to the other. Immunity has not been as good.