Why is not having the vaccine selfish

[chorizoTapas]

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

I think there is a difference between animal testing for a cosmetic and animal testing to end a global pandemic and save millions of lives.

*danger

@QueenofKattegat

It isn't selfish in the slightest. Selfish is the most overused word of this entire pandemic. The amount of coercion and manipulation is disgusting.

Agree

It depends on what your brother does, really.

If he works from home, has his shopping delivered, avoids restaurants and busy public places, doesn't use public transport etc., then it's not particularly selfish.

If he goes out clubbing and to busy places, then it is a bit selfish as there is more chance of him infecting those around him.

If he is a healthcare worker or care worker or works with vulnerable people, then it is so monumentally selfish and stupid to put sick and vulnerable people at increased risk and I hope he loses his job, sorry.

Good god Have we not discussed this to death yet on Mumsnet

@starrynight87 yes, I acknowledge there's a difference. I don't judge anyone else at all for having the vaccine, including other vegans. But I'm opposed to all animal testing, as is my right, and feel very upset about the idea of having the vaccine. As explained, I'm taking every other precaution, and also live in a low infection rate area, so honestly think the odds of me catching and transmitting Covid are extremely low. Not impossible, but low. At least as low as a double-jabbed person who is going out to pubs and restaurants etc loads (no judgement of them either btw)

I understand and respect the vegan dilemma.

I thought it might help to post about the perspective of my friend. She's a strict vegan. She's had the vaccine.

She lives a life as vegan as much as possible within reasonable limit. Being vegan goes way beyond food and medicine. Animal derived or tested products you wouldn't even think of or expect. It's also, for strict vegans, about how your everyday actions impact on animals and wildlife. So driving, flying, products originating from deforestation - even having children and adding to human population encroaching on animal habitats, I.e. for food production, house building etc.

So heavily part of everyday life. It's not completely impossible to live as a full vegan in the modern world but very very difficult.

That said, I do appreciate and respect vegan concerns. Going forwards I'd like to see more medical research involving alternative methods such as stem cells.

15:59RollaCola84

@WanderingFruitWonderer deciding whether to help perpetuate a global pandemic or be part of the solution isn't a particularly complex moral problem in my view.

True, but being vaccinated isn't the only way to achieve this, in my opinion.
What I meant was that the whole vaccine issue, and the selfishness argument is morally complex. As there are so many reasons why people may or may not have chosen to be vaccinated

@MaxNormal

People make "selfish" decisions all the time. It's normal to put your own well-being, and that of immediate family, first.

Are you selfish if you don't donate blood? Spend money on takeaway coffees and disposible fashion instead of donating it to a charity that provides clean drinking water to children who would otherwise die of diarrhea? Drive a car (40K pollution deaths annually in the UK)?
Are you selfish because you're not donating part of your liver, or one of your kidneys?

The vaccine uptake has been interesting as the percentages who have had it are extremely high in the higher age groups and then drop off the younger people are. And that seems simply like people have made a reasonable assessment of the risks vs benefits of the vaccine to them vs catching covid.
I don't think that's selfish, I think it's a perfectly valid and reasonable approach to any medical intervention.

"Selfish" has unfortunately become synonymous, after the past 500 or so days, with "people not doing what I want them to do for my own benefit".

Didn’t get further than this comment as love this! So apt. I expect that all you selfish shouters have registered to donate bone marrow for those affected by leukemia or other bone marrow disorders. Also make sure you aren’t selfish and cause health issues by being obese, eating poorly, excessively drinking, not exercising, smoking etc as you need to stay healthy for your family and kids and please don’t take up any space in hospital for self inflicted illnesses….that would be so selfish! Oh, but then you guys shout these people have mental health issues that causes obesity etc. But on the other hand it’s not allowed to have mental health issues about being worried about potential side effects from a brand new vaccination. So fed up of this crap chat!

@MaxNormal

People make "selfish" decisions all the time. It's normal to put your own well-being, and that of immediate family, first.

Are you selfish if you don't donate blood? Spend money on takeaway coffees and disposible fashion instead of donating it to a charity that provides clean drinking water to children who would otherwise die of diarrhea? Drive a car (40K pollution deaths annually in the UK)?
Are you selfish because you're not donating part of your liver, or one of your kidneys?

The vaccine uptake has been interesting as the percentages who have had it are extremely high in the higher age groups and then drop off the younger people are. And that seems simply like people have made a reasonable assessment of the risks vs benefits of the vaccine to them vs catching covid.
I don't think that's selfish, I think it's a perfectly valid and reasonable approach to any medical intervention.

"Selfish" has unfortunately become synonymous, after the past 500 or so days, with "people not doing what I want them to do for my own benefit".

Excellent post

@WanderingFruitWonderer I agree there are many reasons people choose not to be vaccinated. They are all phenomenally selfish.

If you can't have the vaccine for legitimate medical reasons fine, but choosing not too is selfish. I don't think there's any moral complexity or grey areas about it.

Oh and I'm a blood donor, on the bone marrow register and the organ donor register. I don't smoke and although I'd acknowledge I'm a bit overweight I do my best to keep myself fit and healthy. That help ??

Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful post @Tealightsandd.
Yes, I am car free, and would only fly in an emergency, try to avoid palm oil etc. Of course I'm a million miles away from vegan perfection, and in many ways a terrible hypocrite about many things.
As explained, I feel guilty about not having been vaccinated. I'm the opposite of a Covid denier. I may eventually give in, if my lifestyle changes etc. But, there's been no easy answer for me re the vaccine. It's been more anxiety making than I can say. The one good thing is that the whole process of working it out, has made me considerably less judgemental than I used to be - about all sorts of things. Life is a complex thing.
Funnily enough, there's a Canadian company who've created a plant-based vaccine, but alas, it's not available in the UK yet...

OK @rollacola84. You're absolutely entitled to that opinion. As we all are to our differing opinions. Best wishes to you

I agree there are many reasons people choose not to be vaccinated. They are all phenomenally selfish

Give it a rest. Have you heard yourself?

@Sugarandtime

Transmission wise, the group of people that I know that all had a positive test result all had received 2 injections and seemed to pass it on to each other with no issues. Therefore I’m not sure I have much faith in the reports that it reduces transmission if you’ve received the injections anymore then in people who haven’t.

The fact that public health England reports show that more people who have had injections, especially both, have died with COVID then those who have had no injections does concern me a lot.

To be clear you are saying that the combined research and actual world wide data that vaccines reduce transmission is wrong based on the sample of "people you know"

And you've been keeping that vital information to yourself have you, no thought to save the time and effort of actual qualified doctors and scientists

Some days the stupidity on here knows no bounds

It doesn’t mean you only putting yourself at risk.

1. You are putting people who can’t be vaccinated at risk
2. You are putting people who are vaccinated at risk of being unpleasantly ill rather than at risk of death. Assault is less serious than murder but that doesn’t mean you can go round assaulting people willy-nilly.
3. The larger the pool of unvaccinated people, the larger the reservoir where new variants can arise. Ones which could be more contagious, more deadly or have more resistance to the vaccine.
4. Peopke who don’t have the vaccine and who get Covid are then putting pressure on NHS resources. There’s a financial and social cost to that, but it might also cost someone their life if, for example, there are no ICU places left.

Also make sure you aren’t selfish and cause health issues by being obese, eating poorly, excessively drinking, not exercising, smoking etc as you need to stay healthy for your family and kids and please don’t take up any space in hospital for self inflicted illnesses….that would be

Well it is selfish that people eat poorly and don't exercise... selfish on the part of governments that don't provide sufficient help and support for people. Deny it all you like but poverty and/or poor mental health are key causes of obesity and unhealthy eating. For many people, lifestyle does NOT go hand in hand with choice.

When it comes to public health, homelessness and poor housing play a major role. Impact hugely on public finances and on society.

Smoking on the other hand is arguably unselfish. At least on a societal level. It gives a net gain to the national economy. Taxes paid by smokers more than cover their NHS care (and go some way towards other people's). They're also statistically more likely to die younger so save on pension and care home cost.

@WanderingFruitWonderer different opinions fine, but this is not an individual decision its societal. If you don't have the vaccine you're more likely to require hospital treatment if you get Covid impacting the health system, if you don't have the vaccine you're more likely to transmit it to a person who can't have it or for whom it doesn't work, the more unvaccinated people there are the greater the chance of dangerous mutations developing and higher levels of infections/hospitalisations/deaths = greater chance of restrictions.

You not having the vaccine doesn't just impact you. That's why not having it is selfish and that's why I will continue to tell anyone who refuses it for anything other than serious medical reasons that they are part of the problem.

@QueenofKattegat Yes. If all the selfish idiots would stop being so I wouldn't need to would I ?

Oh my god I can't believe you managed to crowbar your weird smoking obsession into yet another post!!!

I do think it's selfish not to have the vaccine. I think it's pretty black and white. But i also think that if you're selfish enough not to have the vaccine then you're not going to care if people think you're selfish, so I don't really waste any energy on it. I've had the vaccine. I can't really do any more than that (other than calling out any obvious misinformation).

The role of stress on physical and mental health (which is linked to poverty and poor housing) is significantly underestimated.

Stress and mental trauma causes and increases inflammation. Particularly long term and/or extreme stress. Inflammation is a major factor in type 2 diabetes, heart disease, strokes, obesity, and many autoimmune illnesses.

Smoking is way less harmful for society than poverty, and the biggest public health crisis that we have today is homelessness and poor housing.

@QueenofKattegat

Oh my god I can't believe you managed to crowbar your weird smoking obsession into yet another post!!!

I'm not one to ever miss a good opportunity

[quote RollaCola84]@QueenofKattegat Yes. If all the selfish idiots would stop being so I wouldn't need to would I ?[/quote]
Do you think calling people selfish idiots is going to help? People won't do a thing that I think they should do so I'll call them selfish idiots on the Internet....yeah, good one.