Why is not having the vaccine selfish

[chorizoTapas]

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

I’m not suggesting that they’re not immune. I’m saying that we know it enhances antibodies but we don’t know if it actually has a significant impact on things like durability of immunity for example. Time (and more studies!) will tell.

@MRex I’ve already replied to this one on other threads. This is the one comparing neutralisation of antibodies in people infected up to 12 months previously with people who were vaccinated up to 16 weeks previously. What are you trying to prove to me with this?

[quote bumbleymummy]@MRex I’ve already replied to this one on other threads. This is the one comparing neutralisation of antibodies in people infected up to 12 months previously with people who were vaccinated up to 16 weeks previously. What are you trying to prove to me with this?[/quote]
I am simply showing you that when 12 months have passed, and the infection immunity is already down to half, there is no long-term option but to get vaccinated or get covid again. Owning your choice involves admitting that as fact.

N=26 for unvaccinated at 12 months so not a huge sample size and the study is measuring neutralising antibodies so, again, not necessarily the whole picture irt immunity.

Is this enough information for you say with confidence that it is a fact that immunity after infection is not adequately protective against reinfection after 12 months?

My DP has had covid and double vaccinated (he caught it between 1st and 2nd jabs). He now feels invincible so doesn’t wear a mask or sanitise his hands anymore. He’s back to shaking hands with everyone at work and basically acting as if covid doesn’t exist anymore.

I haven’t had the jab, I have an autoimmune condition and don’t want to put undue stress on my system with a vaccine for an illness that apparently is so awful some people who have it don’t even know they’ve got it. I appreciate that for others it’s horrendous and for many it’s unpleasant, but given the stories of people feeling unwell weeks after having the vaccine too, I’m just continuing to sanitise and wash my hands, keep my distance from others and see how the whole vaccine thing pans out for people like me with chronic health conditions.

I don’t think either of us is selfish but I know which one is more likely to be spreading covid.

Interesting study from Sweden (preprint)

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261951v1

Wild type spike IgG and NAb remained detectable in 80% (83/104) of unvaccinated participants one year post mild infection. The neutralizing capacity was similar against wild type (reference), Alpha (0.95 (0.92-0.98) and Delta 1.03 (0.95-1.11) but significantly reduced against Beta (0.54 (0.48-0.60)) and Gamma 0.51 (0.44-0.61).

Also looks at 3 different 2-dose vaccine regimens - measuring antibody response 14-22 or 30-55 days after second dose (depending on the regimen) and also found neutralising antibodies against alpha and delta were better than against beta and gamma - as with the unvaccinated patients.

Good to see antibodies were still detectable in 80% of unvaccinated people 12 months after a mild infection in a larger sample size. (Including against delta)

@bumbleymummy

Interesting study from Sweden (preprint)

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261951v1

Wild type spike IgG and NAb remained detectable in 80% (83/104) of unvaccinated participants one year post mild infection. The neutralizing capacity was similar against wild type (reference), Alpha (0.95 (0.92-0.98) and Delta 1.03 (0.95-1.11) but significantly reduced against Beta (0.54 (0.48-0.60)) and Gamma 0.51 (0.44-0.61).

Also looks at 3 different 2-dose vaccine regimens - measuring antibody response 14-22 or 30-55 days after second dose (depending on the regimen) and also found neutralising antibodies against alpha and delta were better than against beta and gamma - as with the unvaccinated patients.

Good to see antibodies were still detectable in 80% of unvaccinated people 12 months after a mild infection in a larger sample size. (Including against delta)

Interesting how you focus on the immunity provided by infection and have cropped the part of the abstract demonstrated comparable neutralising capacity from all three vaccines. So no evidence from this study that immunity from infection is "superior" to immunity from vaccination.

Here's the full abstract

Wild type spike IgG and NAb remained detectable in 80% (83/104) of
48 unvaccinated participants one year post mild infection. The neutralizing capacity was similar 49 against wild type (reference), Alpha (0.95 (0.92-0.98) and Delta 1.03 (0.95-1.11) but 50 significantly reduced against Beta (0.54 (0.48-0.60)) and Gamma 0.51 (0.44-0.61). Similarly, 51 BNT/BNT and ChAd/ChAd elicited sustained capacity against Alpha and Delta (1.01 (0.78-52 1.31) and 1.03 (0.95-1.11)) and (0.96 (0.84-1.09) and 0.82 (0.61-1.10) respectively), with 53 reduced capacity against Beta (0.67 (0.50-0.88) and 0.53 (0.40-0.71)) and Gamma (0.12 54 (0.06-0.27) and 0.54 (0.37-0.80)). A similar trend was found following ChAd/BNT (0.74 (0.66- 55 0.83) and 0.70 (0.50-0.97) against Alpha and Delta and 0.29 (0.20-0.42) and 0.13 (0.08-0.20) 56 against Beta and Gamma).

Sadly I know of a 10 year old now without her father! He was completely anti vax and very vocal about it, he died from Covid, only in his late 40’s!

Vaccinated people have a much higher chance of not needing the ICU ward and not leaving loved ones much sooner than needs be.

If you can’t have the vaccine for medical reasons that’s completely different, otherwise it’s extremely selfish and the ripples of this might spread far and wide!

Today I spoke with an acquaintance who'd been unvaccinated and said (summarising for brevity and bad language) "I've just had covid and it was terrifying being unable to breathe. I've got to wait another week to get vaccinated, I really don't want to get that again". It occurred to me that I know a lot of people who've had covid, but I don't know anyone in real life who's had covid and doesn't want to be vaccinated to reduce the risk of catching it again, or at least to try to its severity next time. So I wonder, are you absolutely sure you've had covid and at sufficient infection level to retain plenty of antibodies @bumbleymummy? When was your infection and when were your antibody levels last checked?

So no evidence from this study that immunity from infection is "superior" to immunity from vaccination.

I didn’t say it was 🙄 I focussed on the immunity lasting 12 months because MRex and I were discussing it last night and the (smaller) study she linked to had different results . I did summarise the vaccine part (so I didn’t exclude it) and linked to the study itself so I’m sure people are perfectly capable of clicking on a link and reading more about it if they’re interested. :)

@mrex If you read the above study, you’ll see that the participants had mild infection and did not require hospitalisation.

Personally, all the anti covid vaccine people I know in real life have other problems. Either they really thrive in an aspiration to be unique and different and “understand” more than others (in fields they’re not professionals in- like one is an electrical engineer, very very bright, but has been obsessed with the weirdest nutritional theories I’ve ever heard for years! Almost died, too, of them. But still searches for the next big one to latch on) or they’re completely self centered. One of them is a cousin. Immature, and never responsible for anything. It’s always somebody’s else fault. And she goes to quack doctors like people used to go to shamans. She needs to be different to compensate for deep insecurities.
So I am not particularly respectful of anti covid vaccine theories or theoricists.
There is a very rude saying in my language which now would be completely unacceptable for all sorts of reasons, but it springs to my mind every time I hear one. It broadly says “it’s easy to be gay with somebody else’s arse”. That sums it up for me. Rudeness aside!

@bumbleymummy everyone is "perfectly capable" of clicking on a link, but most won't, in the same way the majority of people wouldn't look past what a newspaper article says about a study.

You repeatedly state you're impartial etc etc, but as I said, are choosing to highlight the select quotes when you can have easily copied the entire abstract and not cut out the part on vaccination.

Because that was the part that was relevant to our previous conversation. And I did summarise the vaccine part so it’s not like I excluded it completely.

Anyway, it’s an interesting study all the same :)