Why is not having the vaccine selfish

[chorizoTapas]

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

You are suggesting that vaccination leads to lots of breakthrough infections but infection immunity does not

No, I’m not.

We are seeing more breakthrough cases of the delta variant in vaccinated people compared to previous strains though.

@bumbleymummy

We are seeing more breakthrough cases of the delta variant in vaccinated people compared to previous strains though.

Yes, and equally more re-infections in those with immunity from a previous infection. It's not surprising.

Is it equal? Reinfection rates have stayed low (although are slightly higher than they were) but we’re definitely seeing a lot more breakthrough cases. Happy to read any papers you have a link to :)

@Gruffalosgrandma

The more the virus travels the more likely we are to get new variants and ,the more variants we get , the more likely it is that one will be a vaccine dodger. This doesn't just affect us. It potentially affects the whole world. It is incredibly selfish ( in my opinion ) not to get the vaccine for trivial , ill thought out reasons.

^ This

@bumbleymummy

Is it equal? Reinfection rates have stayed low (although are slightly higher than they were) but we’re definitely seeing a lot more breakthrough cases. Happy to read any papers you have a link to :)

Sad there is no rolling eye emoji on browser.

As you well know, I didn't say "equal", I used the term "equally" which means "in the same manner".

Due it's genetic differences, delta is leading to a higher rate of reinfection in those with previous immunity, be that from an infection or vaccination.

You can argue semantics until the cows come home (which it seems like you have been), but vaccinated offers bolstered immunity, reducing your likelihood of reinfection and transmission to others.

Maybe you will be someone who gained robust and long lasting immunity from an infection, maybe you're someone who would benefit from a vaccination boost, and it will be the difference between infection or no infection. Currently there is no way of knowing, hence why all public health bodies recommend vaccination, no matter if you have a previous infection or not.

Out of interest, why do you think they do all recommend vaccination no matter your previous history of infection? @bumbleymummy

What do you know that has escaped the notice of the epidemiologists and vaccinologists advising governments worldwide?

Due it's genetic differences, delta is leading to a higher rate of reinfection in those with previous immunity, be that from an infection or vaccination.

And I’m asking if it’s to the same (or equal) degree. I guess we don’t know yet.

I gave you the graphs before, but you decided because vaccines were given later than some infections that no data counted. It was a fairly typical response from you, equivocation about anything that doesn't align with your view.

What do you know that has escaped the notice of the epidemiologists and vaccinologists advising governments worldwide?

Oh don’t be silly.

Some countries do accept proof of previous infection as proof of immunity for green passes you know.

I gave you the graphs before, but you decided because vaccines were given later than some infections that no data counted.

Eh?

Are you talking about the 2 graphs you linked to on this page? Where have I done this: you decided because vaccines were given later than some infections that no data counted. in relation to those graphs?

@bumbleymummy

What do you know that has escaped the notice of the epidemiologists and vaccinologists advising governments worldwide?

Oh don’t be silly.

Some countries do accept proof of previous infection as proof of immunity for green passes you know.

Not what I said though is it?

As I said in my post all countries recommend vaccination despite a history of previous infection.

Yes Ireland, who you keep banging on about, accept an infection as part of their "green pass" but they also recommend they get vaccinated.

My questions remains: Out of interest, why do you think they do all recommend vaccination no matter your previous history of infection? @bumbleymummy

And - what you think you know that has escaped the knowledge of the those with real expertise advising them?

You can brush it off with "don't be silly" but that just demonstrates you don't have an answer

‘Banging on about’? Yes, heaven forbid we should discuss policy in a neighbouring country that has a land border with the U.K.

Yes, some countries recommend a single vaccine after previous infection(I’ve mentioned this on other threads), the U.K. does not. Some countries accept proof of previous infection as proof of immunity, the U.K. does not. Time for some review in the U.K. I think. Particularly in light of mounting evidence of durable immunity after infection.

@bumbleymummy

‘Banging on about’? Yes, heaven forbid we should discuss policy in a neighbouring country that has a land border with the U.K.

Yes, some countries recommend a single vaccine after previous infection(I’ve mentioned this on other threads), the U.K. does not. Some countries accept proof of previous infection as proof of immunity, the U.K. does not. Time for some review in the U.K. I think. Particularly in light of mounting evidence of durable immunity after infection.

You keep presenting it as an argument that proves vaccination after infection is not necessary, despite the fact that these countries recommend vaccination after infection.

Using it as part of a green pass is a separate point - yes many places do and the UK considered it. As has been repeatedly said, they also recommend vaccination as well as. Nowhere is stating vaccination does not need to occur after infection

This is a compromise that allows those who don't want to be vaccinated to have a green pass if they have a history of infection. It is not the gold standard in terms of developing robust and long lasting immunity.

@bumbleymummy

Are you talking about the 2 graphs you linked to on this page? Where have I done this: you decided because vaccines were given later than some infections that no data counted. in relation to those graphs?

No, these ones

The ‘don’t be silly’ means that you’re asking a stupid question. I’m not claiming to have some superior knowledge that has escaped them .

I think a lot of it was to do with convenience tbh. Easier to rollout out the vaccine to everyone rather than try to ascertain who had been previously infected and when. There was also the argument that ‘they didn’t know how long immunity after infection would last’ but that one is becoming a bit weaker as time goes on and we have increasing evidence of durable immunity after infection. There is also evidence of increased antibodies after a single dose (to higher levels than even double vaccinated people) although, iirc, there is limited evidence irt t-cell immunity enhancement. We shall see if any policy changes come about :)

It is not the gold standard in terms of developing robust and long lasting immunity.

Actually, we don’t know what the ‘gold standard’ is yet :)

@MRex when did you post those? When did I dismiss them because ‘no data counted’ and what were you actually trying to prove with them?

@bumbleymummy

It is not the gold standard in terms of developing robust and long lasting immunity.

Actually, we don’t know what the ‘gold standard’ is yet :)

@MRex when did you post those? When did I dismiss them because ‘no data counted’ and what were you actually trying to prove with them?

Why are you ignoring everything in my post and just attempting to dash away anything you can't answer?

And yes, multiple studies have demonstrated a previous infection + a booster dose of vaccination a superior level of protection compared to infection alone.

And yes, multiple studies have demonstrated a previous infection + a booster dose of vaccination a superior level of protection compared to infection alone.

Yes, I just stated that. :)

Not ignoring anything. I think I addressed all your points in my previous post.

Actually studies show a higher level of antibodies specifically but we know they don’t tell the whole immunity story.

@bumbleymummy

Actually studies show a higher level of antibodies specifically but we know they don’t tell the whole immunity story.

This seems like a particularly disingenuous comment when you regularly post about the percentage the population testing positive for antibodies implying it means they have immunity and do not need to be vaccinated

@bumbleymummy - www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9. I've posted it for you several times in fact, on various threads in which you refuse to accept that infection immunity will not last.