Why is not having the vaccine selfish

[chorizoTapas]

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

The fact that public health England reports show that more people who have had injections, especially both, have died with COVID then those who have had no injections does concern me a lot.

Data from other countries including USA, Israel, and Norway, indicates that Pfizer and Moderna work well at preventing serious illness and death. Almost all their hospitalised Covid patients are the unvaccinated.

The UK data... well, no vaccine is 100% and it's looking like vaccine protection can fade after a certain amount of time. That's where boosters come in - as a top up. Also, AZ isn't as effective as the mRNA vaccines. It's still good and worth having. It cuts the risk of hospitalisation and death by at least 50%, but perhaps mRNA boosters might be a good idea for AZ people.

That comment was in relation to someone saying that the person who refused to tell people if they'd had the jab means it makes it very clear what their opinion is, quoting comments doesn't always work on my phone!

As has been said, if no one had it, we'd still be in lockdown. People wanting the freedom but not wanting to contribute to us being able to achieve it = selfish. But its everyone's right to be selfish if they want, I'm not denying that! Similarly, it's everyone else's right to point it out if they want to.

I'm just watching a documentary on creation of the vaccines.

Scientists saying that the more unvaccinated people there are, the more the virus has a chance to mutate, making previous vaccinations less effective and the new versions more deadly.

That's why everyone should be vaccinated (medical exceptions apply of course).

Yep @Sugarandtime because your “group of friends” is representative of the whole population 🤔

If 100% of the population were double vaccinated then 100% of the covid deaths would be in double vaccinated people. The face is we are fortunate to have such a high proportion of people vaccinated so you will see more reports of vaccinated people dead/unwell BUT overall the death count and hospitalisations have come down MASSIVELY. This is because of people who are vaccinated. But yeah, you and your friends have hit the nail on the head.

And as others have said, unvaccinated are perfectly happy to enjoy the freedom earned by those who have had their vaccines.

And if transmission in the young “too fit for covid” cause any future lockdowns, who will be the most affected? Oh yeah, the kids who will miss school/Uni, the people out of jobs, the people who want to be at nightclubs and festivals and on holiday, people wanting to have Christmas with their parents/grandparents. Yes everyone has a shit time during lockdown but the younger generation have more than just fear of side effects to consider when looking at pros and cons.

I think not having the vaccine is obviously selfish... but guess what? We're all selfish. I'm selfish all the time. As long as we're not all selfish about the same thing, I don't see the big deal.

(also, "selfish" is fucking weird-looking word isn't it?)

@WeRTheOnesWeHaveBeenWaitingFor
I’m afraid I don’t know how to do links but I have a screenshot.

The fact that public health England reports show that more people who have had injections, especially both, have died with COVID then those who have had no injections does concern me a lot.

To add to my previous post. In the UK, more people have had vaccines than haven't (adults). This includes the vulnerable, some of whom are less protected than healthy people by vaccines. Very vulnerable rely to an extent on herd immunity of others around them being vaccinated - to lower infection rates.
And, like I said, boosters will help a lot. Top up possibly waning protection for those who had their vaccines a while ago, plus increase protection for AZ people. Studies have suggested AZ followed by Pfizer or Moderna gives strong protection (Germany's Angela Merkel, who is a scientist, had AZ first and Moderna second).

Scientists saying that the more unvaccinated people there are, the more the virus has a chance to mutate, making previous vaccinations less effective and the new versions more deadly.

Yes. And this risk includes the partially vaccinated.

On a related note, failure to suppress and contain adds to the risk. It's why countries like the UK - with wide open borders and almost no mitigation measures (even simple and easy ones like masks) are a danger to the whole world.

Not having the vaccine is completely selfish and stupid.

Some people can't have the vaccine which means those who can SHOULD. The more we reduce the spread, the better we can protect those for whom the vaccine isn't possible/ doesn't work as well.

Just today a friend told me she's had to cancel the weekend trip she was looking forward to as the people she was meeting are isolating, pinged after attending a wedding. Turns out it was the bride who had covid, unvaccinated by choice, so everyone who was at the wedding is now isolating, regardless of their own vaccination status. Pretty crap!

Also what other people have said about we could all do without any more variants, so the fewer hosts the better.

The fact that public health England reports show that more people who have had injections, especially both, have died with COVID then those who have had no injections does concern me a lot.

Eh? This is simply not true at all because most of the deaths happened in the first and second waves before no one was vaccinated. Some double vaccinated people have indeed died in the recent months but the absolute majority are elderly, have underlying health conditions and are frail, so would have been at an increased risk anyway, and unfortunately it's well known that elderly and immucompromised people don't get as much benefit from vaccinations as their immune system doesn't mount up enough of a response.

The vaccines have saved thousands of lives in this country alone, let alone worldwide.

Talking of how unvaccinated increase risks to the vulnerable around them. Plus socioeconomic risk factors like urban poverty including dense population and overcrowded housing. Arguably elderly and CV Londoners (there are several million vulnerable in London) should be prioritised for boosters. They won't be for political reasons but morally they should be.

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/young-londoners-least-likely-covid-vaccine-b949487.html

Some double vaccinated people have indeed died in the recent months but the absolute majority are elderly, have underlying health conditions and are frail, so would have been at an increased risk

Two points here.

First, in the majority of cases underlying condition does not = frail.

Secondly. Do we know that for sure? Where is the data on who amongst the double jabbed is dying?

What we do know is that data from countries like America, Israel, and Norway, show that almost all those hospitalised and dying are unvaccinated.

In the UK, we probably just need to booster jab the elderly, vulnerable, and AZ people.

Well of course it's selfish.

Vaccinated people are less likely to catch COVID, so they're less likely to pass it along.

If they catch it, they fight it off faster than unvaccinated people, which means their contagious window is shorter, so they're less likely to pass it on.

They require extensive, intensive, and expensive hospital care that is largely avoidable with a simple precaution.

They encourage mutations with i encumbered spread.

They make herd immunity a more distant dream for the immuno-compromised.

And they make getting back to anything approaching normality a distant dream for everyone else.

Scientists saying that the more unvaccinated people there are, the more the virus has a chance to mutate, making previous vaccinations less effective and the new versions more deadly.
Yes. I used to think it was a personal choice but really the anti-vax brigade are putting everyone in danger.

You are not only putting yourself at risk though are you?

Unvaccinated you are more likely to catch covid, and can then pass it on to both vaccinated and unvaccinated

Even vaccinated you are able to catch it, even mildly, but look at all the posts about how nasty covid is, even vaccinated. And if vaccinated you can still end up in hospital. Why would anyone want to catch it?

So I understand why some people say they are not meeting up with unvaccinated who are more likely to spread it

Because the vaccine reduces transmission and severity of disease. I'm mid 30s, bit overweight but no underlying health conditions and am rarely ill. I fall firmly into the group of people who would probably be absolutely fine if I did get Covid. Deciding not to have it on that basis is the height of "well I'm alright Jack" selfishness. I'll be OK so sod everyone else.

It's doubly selfish as reducing transmission levels and severity of disease is also what's going to ensure no future restrictions and hopefully minimise the risk of mode dangerous variants.

I was astonished at a colleague last week who told me she wasn't planning on having it as she didn't think she needed it, fortunately she'd then decided that being able to go on holiday abroad outweighed her other views.

I'm in no hurry to be around anyone who refuses to be vaccinated.

I find it selfish. If all of us didn't have it, we wouldn't be enjoying our current freedoms.

I think it's a complex moral issue. People are complicated, and there are a multitude of reasons why we do, or don't do, all sorts of things.
I haven't been vaccinated yet (I'm not saying never) and to be honest the allegations of selfishness on here really hit a nerve, and I do feel very guilty and ashamed. Which I guess is the idea! If I ever gave in and had the vaccine after all, it would be due to all the shaming.
My reasons for not having had it are multiple, but the main one is that I'm a vegan, and opposed to animal testing. I don't generally use any pharmaceuticals. I also have my share of mental health struggles, including medical anxiety.
I'm doing all I can in every other way to avoid catching, or moreover, passing on, Covid. I'm avoiding indoor crowded spaces still, where possible. When not possible I double mask. I'm self-employed, so work alone anyway, and am outdoors for much of the time. I'm also dosed up with protective vitamins and minerals, and antiviral herbs.
In most of my life I try to be a good citizen. But I think we all have our limits, which will vary enormously from person to person.
The funny thing is that back in January, I was very pro the vaccine, and thought/said it was selfish not to have it! Then I realised that was because I was in defensive mode as I didn't want it myself! I had to face that, and eat humble pie. People are scared and confused these days, and saying all kinds of things they may later revise. I'm at a place now of just accepting we're all different, and coping with the weirdness of the world in our own ways. Few things are black and white...

@Serenissima21 I had a similar debate with someone about antibiotics. It's not whether you're resistant to antibiotics it's whether as a human race we develop diseases that are resistant to antibiotics because the antibiotics we have aren't used properly. Then we're back to medieval times and what are now relatively simple wounds or infections being fatal.

I'd make every vaccine on the schedule compulsory unless there is independent doubly verified medical evidence that the person is unable to have it.

*Not having the vaccine is completely selfish and stupid.

Some people can't have the vaccine which means those who can SHOULD. The more we reduce the spread, the better we can protect those for whom the vaccine isn't possible/ doesn't work as well.*

Basically just this.

@WanderingFruitWonderer deciding whether to help perpetuate a global pandemic or be part of the solution isn't a particularly complex moral problem in my view.

Because you not only put your life at risk but others around you too.

Some people actually trust and have faith in their own immune system.

It's great if it works out. But if not, you maybe putting yourself and those around you into unnecessary dander. Not just that but also end up paying an ultimate price.
I've just saw this, and found it incredibly sad story.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/covid-anti-vaxxer-bournemouth-lawrenson-b1898012.html